RevelatioN

[JIME]

Grace to you,

Soon. Not 2000+ plus years later, but soon.

2Pe 3:8

[Bold Believer]

Hi Bold Believer

So then, if it was soon to them, why do modern believers insist on trying to make it something meant for us in our day?

Here's what I think. Since God is eternal, He does not live in our time sphere and is not confined to time on earth. Soon to God at the time The Revelation was given to John by Jesus Christ could mean thousands of years to us. I personally believe that when Jesus gave His Revelation or vision to the Apostle John, Jesus was referring to the tribulation time of the end that would happen just before His return because of all the other proprocies that are lining up in the OT concerning Israel, and the evil of the day prophecized in the NT in many places that signal His soon return to earth, and therefore, is speaking to the endtime church. I also believe our generation is living in the time that Jesus was speaking about to John in The Revelation.

Jesus spoke to seven churches in John's vision with specific warnings to each church, except the Church at Philadelphia, and these warnings are very applicable for all believers today I think.

Even if this was not the time of the end, I think The Revelation would still be applicable to all believers, with lessons to learn because the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Blessings,

Nikki

Rev 20 is certainly applicable to us, but the chapters before that depict the destruction of Jerusalem double for her sins and the punishment of the apostate Jewish leadership for its rejection of Messiah and leading astray of the people (who wind up suffering because of their leaders' evil). The tribulation was 3.5 years of time during which this punishment occurred. It was the time of JACOB'S trouble. It affected Israel, and those nations which interacted with her. (Remember, when Jerusalem burns, the nations cry over it; a lot of trade was done with Jerusalem as it was one of the major trade centers of the Roman world)

The seven churches were specifically mentioned as having been IN ASIA. Philadelphia was perfect, Laodicea was the most imperfect, the others had varying degrees of imperfection. He was talking TO THEM and no one else (although they can certainly serve as examples). He wanted them to get their act together, because the tribulation WAS coming very soon. (I don't subscribe to the late date of Revelation, I believe it was written before then.)

Revelation was clearly written to those in the midst of tribulation (tough times) with John, not to us 2000+ years later. Can we learn from what they went through? Absolutely, but Revelation wasn't written specifically to US, it was to THEM.

[spiritman]

So I'm not familiar with full blow preterism but I would be interested in learning more. from what I've heard you believe that the Book of Revelation came to past in 70 A.D

is this correct?

And that the Anti-christ is Nero is that correct?

Please correct me if this is incorrect

[Bold Believer]

So I'm not familiar with full blow preterism but I would be interested in learning more. from what I've heard you believe that the Book of Revelation came to past in 70 A.D

is this correct?

And that the Anti-christ is Nero is that correct?

Please correct me if this is incorrect

Preterists believe the Second Coming WAS 70 AD. I do not. I believe the Second Coming is the FINAL event in the timeline and that it occurs at some unknown point after the thousand years of Rev 20. 70 AD was the destruction of Jerusalem as prophesied by Moses, Jesus and Daniel. (See Deuteronomy Ch 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32, Daniel 9:24-27, Ezekiel 16, Jeremiah 51 and Matthew 23:36-38)

Nero is the personification of Rome, in the same way that one would call Pharoah the personification of Egypt, Nebuchadnezzar the personification of Babylon or Alexander the Great the personification of Greece. Nero is NOT the antichrist. Gnostic heretics were the antichrists (plural) and John defines them when he says:

1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

and again:

1 Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the {spirit} of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

and finally:

2 Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ {as} coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

These and 1 Jo 2:18 are the ONLY VERSES IN ALL SCRIPTURE WHICH USE THE TERM ANTICHRIST. None of the other apostles, prophets OR JESUS use the term at all. It is unique to John. Does John ever call this 'antichrist' a dictator who will lead a revived Roman Empire? NO. Why then should we? Did John not know what he was talking about? That would be a stretch of the imagination to even go there.

Did the early Christians under Nero call him the Beast? Yes they did. Does the Beast refer exclusively to Nero? No. The Beast is the Roman Empire, Daniel's Fourth Beast which tears apart everything in its path and Nero was its head at the time of Revelation. He personifies the Rome-Beast. Does Nero's name add up to 666. Yes it does, in Hebrew gematria. Does Nero represent Rome? Yes he does. So then the number of the Beast is Ksr Nrwn...666. This is why John through the Holy Spirit tells the Believers to calculate the number of the the Beast's name. He couldn't come out and say "Hey guys, IT'S NERO!" That would have earned him Paul's fate.

The Revelation was primarily fulfilled in 70 AD; only CH 20 and onward remains to be fulfilled.

[kross]

No, that isn't a typo in the title. I've noticed that a lot of Believers write or say "Revelations" when they mean the Book of Revelation. Just what is the book revealing? Is it a book about primarily the end of time, or the end of an age? Or about things which will occur soon to its original readers.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Jesus is the Revealer. God gave him the revelation to show to his bondservants the things which must soon take place. Soon. Not 2000+ plus years later, but soon. As in soon to the people to whom it was written. So then, if it was soon to them, why do modern believers insist on trying to make it something meant for us in our day? All Scripture has things to teach and show us, don't get me wrong, but the Revelation was not specifically meant for us, but to the Believers of the day in which it was written.

All of the figures, metaphors and yes, the things that literally happened as well, all have their roots in the Old Testament and early New Testament, not in the newspaper and TV. It has little to say to us, with the exception of the final chapters, and even there, the information given is very sketchy and non-specific. Yet, modern teachers insist on trying to make the revelation fit us here in the future, rather than the Believers of the day in which it was written. In their misguided attempts to do this, the modern teachers twist history and take this things out of context both Scripturally and historically to our detriment.

When reading Revelation, keep the Old Testament handy and look at the words and figures used in Revelation. The book will make a lot more sense when (and if) you do. Also, think about having Josephus' Antiquities Chapter 5: War of the Jews around as well for a historical perspective of 70 AD from someone who was there.

2,000 years is less than a snap of a finger in eternity. Yes, some feel it is things that already happened, some think it is things yet to come, some think a little of both.

Oh, I think it is called the book of The Revelation of John, or just The Revelation

[Bold Believer]

No, that isn't a typo in the title. I've noticed that a lot of Believers write or say "Revelations" when they mean the Book of Revelation. Just what is the book revealing? Is it a book about primarily the end of time, or the end of an age? Or about things which will occur soon to its original readers.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Jesus is the Revealer. God gave him the revelation to show to his bondservants the things which must soon take place. Soon. Not 2000+ plus years later, but soon. As in soon to the people to whom it was written. So then, if it was soon to them, why do modern believers insist on trying to make it something meant for us in our day? All Scripture has things to teach and show us, don't get me wrong, but the Revelation was not specifically meant for us, but to the Believers of the day in which it was written.

All of the figures, metaphors and yes, the things that literally happened as well, all have their roots in the Old Testament and early New Testament, not in the newspaper and TV. It has little to say to us, with the exception of the final chapters, and even there, the information given is very sketchy and non-specific. Yet, modern teachers insist on trying to make the revelation fit us here in the future, rather than the Believers of the day in which it was written. In their misguided attempts to do this, the modern teachers twist history and take this things out of context both Scripturally and historically to our detriment.

When reading Revelation, keep the Old Testament handy and look at the words and figures used in Revelation. The book will make a lot more sense when (and if) you do. Also, think about having Josephus' Antiquities Chapter 5: War of the Jews around as well for a historical perspective of 70 AD from someone who was there.

2,000 years is less than a snap of a finger in eternity. Yes, some feel it is things that already happened, some think it is things yet to come, some think a little of both.

Jesus said that the things would come upon THAT GENERATION. I prefer to believe Him rather than the modern teachers who try and make the past fit the future. The resurrection of the Believers, the translation of live Believers (call it the rapture if you like) and the reanimation of the dead unto their judgment in the Lake of Fire with their Daddy the devil are all yet to come. We the righteous will inherit the New Earth and have access to the New Heaven (Rev 21). If I were a FULL preterist, I would believe those things had already taken place, I don't.

[spiritman]

If the Book of Revelation has happened in 70 A.D, then you should be able to answer my following questions:

when did the following occur

1. the Anti-Christ broker in a 7 year peace treaty with Israel, and her enemies, and then break it; and sit on the throne in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God?

2. when did the anti-Christ Make everyone on planet earth receive a mark in their right hand or forehead; So that those who would not receive the mark couldn't buy or sell

3. The anti-christ and his entire army have a fight with Jesus Christ, and lose? ( this is how the anti-christ dies by the way) has anyone in history died this way?

4. And when did Jesus Christ sit on the throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years?

5. when did the anti-christ Form a one world alliance where, He is ruler over the entire planet?

6. when did All of Israel accepts Jesus as Messiah?

These are just a few question I have, here is scripture to where these are located.

1. Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:36; Daniel 12:11

2. Revelation 13: 16- 18; Revelation 14:9-11; Revelation 19:20

3. Revelation 19:20-21

4. Revelation 20:6; Daniel 2:44-45; Daniel 7:13-14; Mic 4:7;

5. Daniel 2:42-43; Daniel 7:7; Daniel 7:24; Revelation 17:12

6. Jeremiah 31:31-34; Jeremiah 32:40-42; Romans 11:26; Luke 21:24;

Bold believer; May God be with you as you study these above concerns of mine.

[Bold Believer]

"Revelation is centered upon the coming of Christ Jesus, Messiah and King of Israel, to His Kingdom. To state that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the coming of a very Jewish King, Man, Kingdom, and Messiah is a misnomer."

I never said Revelation had nothing to do with the coming of a Jewish King. The entire New Testament is about that. Just when did the Kingdom begin though? I contend it began in Matthew 28 at the Ascension.

Dan 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. (The Ascension)

Dan 7:14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and {men of every} language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (The Kingdom is given to Christ AT THE ASCENSION, fulfilling Daniel's prophetic vision.)

Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Daniel's prophecy fulfilled. Jesus is given all authority in heaven and earth. Furthermore, He also gives them the Holy Spirit 10 days later, further cementing the fact that the Kingdom has begun.

So what's the problem here?

[spiritman]

So I'm not familiar with full blow preterism but I would be interested in learning more. from what I've heard you believe that the Book of Revelation came to past in 70 A.D

is this correct?

And that the Anti-christ is Nero is that correct?

Please correct me if this is incorrect

Preterists believe the Second Coming WAS 70 AD. I do not. I believe the Second Coming is the FINAL event in the timeline and that it occurs at some unknown point after the thousand years of Rev 20. 70 AD was the destruction of Jerusalem as prophesied by Moses, Jesus and Daniel. (See Deuteronomy Ch 28, 29, 30, 31 and 32, Daniel 9:24-27, Ezekiel 16, Jeremiah 51 and Matthew 23:36-38)

Nero is the personification of Rome, in the same way that one would call Pharoah the personification of Egypt, Nebuchadnezzar the personification of Babylon or Alexander the Great the personification of Greece. Nero is NOT the antichrist. Gnostic heretics were the antichrists (plural) and John defines them when he says:

1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

and again:

1 Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the {spirit} of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

and finally:

2 Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ {as} coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

These and 1 Jo 2:18 are the ONLY VERSES IN ALL SCRIPTURE WHICH USE THE TERM ANTICHRIST. None of the other apostles, prophets OR JESUS use the term at all. It is unique to John. Does John ever call this 'antichrist' a dictator who will lead a revived Roman Empire? NO. Why then should we? Did John not know what he was talking about? That would be a stretch of the imagination to even go there.

Did the early Christians under Nero call him the Beast? Yes they did. Does the Beast refer exclusively to Nero? No. The Beast is the Roman Empire, Daniel's Fourth Beast which tears apart everything in its path and Nero was its head at the time of Revelation. He personifies the Rome-Beast. Does Nero's name add up to 666. Yes it does, in Hebrew gematria. Does Nero represent Rome? Yes he does. So then the number of the Beast is Ksr Nrwn...666. This is why John through the Holy Spirit tells the Believers to calculate the number of the the Beast's name. He couldn't come out and say "Hey guys, IT'S NERO!" That would have earned him Paul's fate.

The Revelation was primarily fulfilled in 70 AD; only CH 20 and onward remains to be fulfilled.

Do you disagree that the scripture points to one man as being the anti-chirst in this scirpture: 27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." Dan 9:27 (NASB

And this one: Rev 13:16 (NASB)) And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

one more: Rev 13:18 (NASB) Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

Please check the above two scriptures out concerning the ant-christ, doesn't the word he mean (singular, as in just one man), and the fact that Revelation 13:18 says it the number of a man, seems to me like it is a saying that the antichrist is just one man. However it is noted, that there is also the spirit of anti-christ which dwells in many.

[nikki1]

Hi Bold Believer

So then, if it was soon to them, why do modern believers insist on trying to make it something meant for us in our day?

Here's what I think. Since God is eternal, He does not live in our time sphere and is not confined to time on earth. Soon to God at the time The Revelation was given to John by Jesus Christ could mean thousands of years to us. I personally believe that when Jesus gave His Revelation or vision to the Apostle John, Jesus was referring to the tribulation time of the end that would happen just before His return because of all the other proprocies that are lining up in the OT concerning Israel, and the evil of the day prophecized in the NT in many places that signal His soon return to earth, and therefore, is speaking to the endtime church. I also believe our generation is living in the time that Jesus was speaking about to John in The Revelation.

Jesus spoke to seven churches in John's vision with specific warnings to each church, except the Church at Philadelphia, and these warnings are very applicable for all believers today I think.

Even if this was not the time of the end, I think The Revelation would still be applicable to all believers, with lessons to learn because the Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

Blessings,

Nikki

Rev 20 is certainly applicable to us, but the chapters before that depict the destruction of Jerusalem double for her sins and the punishment of the apostate Jewish leadership for its rejection of Messiah and leading astray of the people (who wind up suffering because of their leaders' evil). The tribulation was 3.5 years of time during which this punishment occurred. It was the time of JACOB'S trouble. It affected Israel, and those nations which interacted with her. (Remember, when Jerusalem burns, the nations cry over it; a lot of trade was done with Jerusalem as it was one of the major trade centers of the Roman world)

The seven churches were specifically mentioned as having been IN ASIA. Philadelphia was perfect, Laodicea was the most imperfect, the others had varying degrees of imperfection. He was talking TO THEM and no one else (although they can certainly serve as examples). He wanted them to get their act together, because the tribulation WAS coming very soon. (I don't subscribe to the late date of Revelation, I believe it was written before then.)

Revelation was clearly written to those in the midst of tribulation (tough times) with John, not to us 2000+ years later. Can we learn from what they went through? Absolutely, but Revelation wasn't written specifically to US, it was to THEM.

So if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying all but Revelation 20 has occurred? If this is so, could

you please answer the following question for me pertaining to Revelation 17?

Revelation 17:1-12 KJV

1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

In this passage from Revelation 17, John saw the beast and the harlot together, with the harlot reigning over a ten horned beast, which I attribute to an end time global beast. With your theory, could you explain in what time period this happened?

Blessings,

Nikki