Cease and Desist The Prosecution of 3 Navy Seals

[ted]

Let's also remember that it was the SEAL team that requested this trial. If they had taken a Captain Mast, then they would be saying they are guilty. They are here to prove their innocence.

exactly.... Capt Mast if NJP, which is pretty much does not follow them, but can cost them their paygrade or even two, cost them 1/2 months pay for several months, and even brig time and or restriction time....

most people call, NJP as "Guilty until proven innocent" and Courts Marshal is "Innocent until proven guilty"

yes, with the NJP, it may have been nothing more then a slap on the wrist, or a bust and brig time, maybe even working parties (kind of like the ol' chain gangs, with out the chains).... but yet, it can be the principle of the thing.....

It would also remain on their record forever, which is what they did not want. They choose this avenue for this reason.

Not necessarily.

When military folks accept an Article 15, or a Captain's Mast in the Navy, they are NOT admitting guilt in any way. The determination of guilt is on the shoulders of the Commander who is responsible for the proceedings. These proceedings are completely Military in nature and considered Nonjudicial. In other words, if found guilty during the proceedings, that finding would not be recognized as a Federal crime like the results of a Guilty verdict in a Court Martial would be.

These proceedings were designed to keep order and deal with issues that were related to mostly military matters or minor offenses which were related more towards Military regulations as opposed to the civilian version of similar laws.

At the start of the proceedings, the Commander reads the accusations, and clearly tells the offender that he does not have to accept the proceedings and can, instead, request a trial by Courts Martial. If the offender accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she is then given time (usually 48 hours) to seek legal counsel, and then Part 2 kicks in. If the offender again decides to accept the proceedings and refuses a trial, the Commander then will decide whether or not the person is guilty of the charges. If the Commander decides the person is guilty, the Commander then decides on the punishment/s to impose. These punishments have a determined range based on the level of grade of the proceedings (Company Grade, Field Grade, etc.).

Here's the important part: The Commander can, at his discretion, choose to suspend any punishments he or she imposes and further more can also put the person on probation and set a time frame with it. In other words, the Commander can impose punishment, suspend the actions for a determined time and then wipe the record clean if the person successfully carries out his end of the bargain.

Even more importantly, if the accused accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she can request an open hearing and can have anyone he wants in there with him during the proceedings as a witness on his behalf, or simply as an audience. During that proceeding, the Commander will listen to all witnesses called forth, and then will make a determination of guilt or innocence. An accused Military member has every right to make one of three choices when first presented with charges under Article 15 (or Captain's Mast): Guilty, Not Guilty, or No Contest. An accused Military member can plead Not Guilty and force the Commander to have an open hearing at any time during the proceedings until he changes his plea to guilty.

In summary, accepting an Article 15 or Captain's Mast is not an admission of guilt by any means. It's simply a lower form of informal court the Military uses to deal with Military-related issues of discipline. As well, the results of such a proceeding do not have to stay on the Military member's permanent record. Basically, it's up to the Commander who is conducting the proceedings- everything from the decision to go forward with the proceedings, the determination of guilt or innocence, right down to the punishment/s imposed, if any.

Now, here's my humble opinion on this subject at hand. Their Commander could have drawn up the Captain's Mast, brought these Sailors into his office, read them the charges, gave them the time to go to JAG, brought them back into his office two days later, re-read the charges, and then find them Not Guilty due to lack of evidence. Case closed.

Sadly, these Sailors felt that it wouldn't be so simple, or they felt that it wouldn't go in their favor, so they felt forced to bring this to a higher court. Here is where I find it hard to comment accurately because I don't know the specifics of the case, and neither do many of us. We can guess, but that's about it until the trial comes and we read about the proceedings.

It's possible that these Sailors figured that they were being railroaded due to political correctness, or whatever reason, and felt that they wanted their day in court to prove their case. They also might have been talked to by someone and offered a deal where they would be punished in some small way just so the Navy can say they did something about the issue. They might have determined that they did nothing wrong and refused to accept guilt in the matter. All of this is speculation at this point.

Personally, I feel they were leaned on to accept a Captain's Mast and they felt like they were not guilty of whatever charges were being imposed on them and decided to fight it out in court for better or worse. I also personally feel that prosecuting these Sailors for this petty nonsense, even if remotely guilty, shows a distinct lack of character within the legal community of the United States Navy. To slap these Sailors in the face with such petty charges in the middle of a war is not only a travesty, but also tells me that it might just be time to pull up our stakes and return home once and for all. If this is the best we can do for our nation's elite, then the common Sailor, Soldier, Marine, or Airman doesn't stand a chance in hell.

t.

[OneLight]

Let's also remember that it was the SEAL team that requested this trial. If they had taken a Captain Mast, then they would be saying they are guilty. They are here to prove their innocence.

exactly.... Capt Mast if NJP, which is pretty much does not follow them, but can cost them their paygrade or even two, cost them 1/2 months pay for several months, and even brig time and or restriction time....

most people call, NJP as "Guilty until proven innocent" and Courts Marshal is "Innocent until proven guilty"

yes, with the NJP, it may have been nothing more then a slap on the wrist, or a bust and brig time, maybe even working parties (kind of like the ol' chain gangs, with out the chains).... but yet, it can be the principle of the thing.....

It would also remain on their record forever, which is what they did not want. They choose this avenue for this reason.

Not necessarily.

When military folks accept an Article 15, or a Captain's Mast in the Navy, they are NOT admitting guilt in any way. The determination of guilt is on the shoulders of the Commander who is responsible for the proceedings. These proceedings are completely Military in nature and considered Nonjudicial. In other words, if found guilty during the proceedings, that finding would not be recognized as a Federal crime like the results of a Guilty verdict in a Court Martial would be.

These proceedings were designed to keep order and deal with issues that were related to mostly military matters or minor offenses which were related more towards Military regulations as opposed to the civilian version of similar laws.

At the start of the proceedings, the Commander reads the accusations, and clearly tells the offender that he does not have to accept the proceedings and can, instead, request a trial by Courts Martial. If the offender accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she is then given time (usually 48 hours) to seek legal counsel, and then Part 2 kicks in. If the offender again decides to accept the proceedings and refuses a trial, the Commander then will decide whether or not the person is guilty of the charges. If the Commander decides the person is guilty, the Commander then decides on the punishment/s to impose. These punishments have a determined range based on the level of grade of the proceedings (Company Grade, Field Grade, etc.).

Here's the important part: The Commander can, at his discretion, choose to suspend any punishments he or she imposes and further more can also put the person on probation and set a time frame with it. In other words, the Commander can impose punishment, suspend the actions for a determined time and then wipe the record clean if the person successfully carries out his end of the bargain.

Even more importantly, if the accused accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she can request an open hearing and can have anyone he wants in there with him during the proceedings as a witness on his behalf, or simply as an audience. During that proceeding, the Commander will listen to all witnesses called forth, and then will make a determination of guilt or innocence. An accused Military member has every right to make one of three choices when first presented with charges under Article 15 (or Captain's Mast): Guilty, Not Guilty, or No Contest. An accused Military member can plead Not Guilty and force the Commander to have an open hearing at any time during the proceedings until he changes his plea to guilty.

In summary, accepting an Article 15 or Captain's Mast is not an admission of guilt by any means. It's simply a lower form of informal court the Military uses to deal with Military-related issues of discipline. As well, the results of such a proceeding do not have to stay on the Military member's permanent record. Basically, it's up to the Commander who is conducting the proceedings- everything from the decision to go forward with the proceedings, the determination of guilt or innocence, right down to the punishment/s imposed, if any.

Now, here's my humble opinion on this subject at hand. Their Commander could have drawn up the Captain's Mast, brought these Sailors into his office, read them the charges, gave them the time to go to JAG, brought them back into his office two days later, re-read the charges, and then find them Not Guilty due to lack of evidence. Case closed.

Sadly, these Sailors felt that it wouldn't be so simple, or they felt that it wouldn't go in their favor, so they felt forced to bring this to a higher court. Here is where I find it hard to comment accurately because I don't know the specifics of the case, and neither do many of us. We can guess, but that's about it until the trial comes and we read about the proceedings.

It's possible that these Sailors figured that they were being railroaded due to political correctness, or whatever reason, and felt that they wanted their day in court to prove their case. They also might have been talked to by someone and offered a deal where they would be punished in some small way just so the Navy can say they did something about the issue. They might have determined that they did nothing wrong and refused to accept guilt in the matter. All of this is speculation at this point.

Personally, I feel they were leaned on to accept a Captain's Mast and they felt like they were not guilty of whatever charges were being imposed on them and decided to fight it out in court for better or worse. I also personally feel that prosecuting these Sailors for this petty nonsense, even if remotely guilty, shows a distinct lack of character within the legal community of the United States Navy. To slap these Sailors in the face with such petty charges in the middle of a war is not only a travesty, but also tells me that it might just be time to pull up our stakes and return home once and for all. If this is the best we can do for our nation's elite, then the common Sailor, Soldier, Marine, or Airman doesn't stand a chance in hell.

t.

I have been in a Captain's Mast myself. It remains on my permanent record today. That is what I am talking about, not that it will follow them into their general life, but their military records.

[ted]

Let's also remember that it was the SEAL team that requested this trial. If they had taken a Captain Mast, then they would be saying they are guilty. They are here to prove their innocence.

exactly.... Capt Mast if NJP, which is pretty much does not follow them, but can cost them their paygrade or even two, cost them 1/2 months pay for several months, and even brig time and or restriction time....

most people call, NJP as "Guilty until proven innocent" and Courts Marshal is "Innocent until proven guilty"

yes, with the NJP, it may have been nothing more then a slap on the wrist, or a bust and brig time, maybe even working parties (kind of like the ol' chain gangs, with out the chains).... but yet, it can be the principle of the thing.....

It would also remain on their record forever, which is what they did not want. They choose this avenue for this reason.

Not necessarily.

When military folks accept an Article 15, or a Captain's Mast in the Navy, they are NOT admitting guilt in any way. The determination of guilt is on the shoulders of the Commander who is responsible for the proceedings. These proceedings are completely Military in nature and considered Nonjudicial. In other words, if found guilty during the proceedings, that finding would not be recognized as a Federal crime like the results of a Guilty verdict in a Court Martial would be.

These proceedings were designed to keep order and deal with issues that were related to mostly military matters or minor offenses which were related more towards Military regulations as opposed to the civilian version of similar laws.

At the start of the proceedings, the Commander reads the accusations, and clearly tells the offender that he does not have to accept the proceedings and can, instead, request a trial by Courts Martial. If the offender accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she is then given time (usually 48 hours) to seek legal counsel, and then Part 2 kicks in. If the offender again decides to accept the proceedings and refuses a trial, the Commander then will decide whether or not the person is guilty of the charges. If the Commander decides the person is guilty, the Commander then decides on the punishment/s to impose. These punishments have a determined range based on the level of grade of the proceedings (Company Grade, Field Grade, etc.).

Here's the important part: The Commander can, at his discretion, choose to suspend any punishments he or she imposes and further more can also put the person on probation and set a time frame with it. In other words, the Commander can impose punishment, suspend the actions for a determined time and then wipe the record clean if the person successfully carries out his end of the bargain.

Even more importantly, if the accused accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she can request an open hearing and can have anyone he wants in there with him during the proceedings as a witness on his behalf, or simply as an audience. During that proceeding, the Commander will listen to all witnesses called forth, and then will make a determination of guilt or innocence. An accused Military member has every right to make one of three choices when first presented with charges under Article 15 (or Captain's Mast): Guilty, Not Guilty, or No Contest. An accused Military member can plead Not Guilty and force the Commander to have an open hearing at any time during the proceedings until he changes his plea to guilty.

In summary, accepting an Article 15 or Captain's Mast is not an admission of guilt by any means. It's simply a lower form of informal court the Military uses to deal with Military-related issues of discipline. As well, the results of such a proceeding do not have to stay on the Military member's permanent record. Basically, it's up to the Commander who is conducting the proceedings- everything from the decision to go forward with the proceedings, the determination of guilt or innocence, right down to the punishment/s imposed, if any.

Now, here's my humble opinion on this subject at hand. Their Commander could have drawn up the Captain's Mast, brought these Sailors into his office, read them the charges, gave them the time to go to JAG, brought them back into his office two days later, re-read the charges, and then find them Not Guilty due to lack of evidence. Case closed.

Sadly, these Sailors felt that it wouldn't be so simple, or they felt that it wouldn't go in their favor, so they felt forced to bring this to a higher court. Here is where I find it hard to comment accurately because I don't know the specifics of the case, and neither do many of us. We can guess, but that's about it until the trial comes and we read about the proceedings.

It's possible that these Sailors figured that they were being railroaded due to political correctness, or whatever reason, and felt that they wanted their day in court to prove their case. They also might have been talked to by someone and offered a deal where they would be punished in some small way just so the Navy can say they did something about the issue. They might have determined that they did nothing wrong and refused to accept guilt in the matter. All of this is speculation at this point.

Personally, I feel they were leaned on to accept a Captain's Mast and they felt like they were not guilty of whatever charges were being imposed on them and decided to fight it out in court for better or worse. I also personally feel that prosecuting these Sailors for this petty nonsense, even if remotely guilty, shows a distinct lack of character within the legal community of the United States Navy. To slap these Sailors in the face with such petty charges in the middle of a war is not only a travesty, but also tells me that it might just be time to pull up our stakes and return home once and for all. If this is the best we can do for our nation's elite, then the common Sailor, Soldier, Marine, or Airman doesn't stand a chance in hell.

t.

I have been in a Captain's Mast myself. It remains on my permanent record today. That is what I am talking about, not that it will follow them into their general life, but their military records.

Yes, but it was the Commander's decision to put it there. I have several myself, some made it, and some didn't because the Commander chose to suspend the punishments and then wipe the AR.15 if I was a good boy for 6 months

That was my point though, it doesn't necessarily have to go in your permanent military records.

On top of that, there was a time not so long ago where the first AR.15 a Soldier got while still in his first enlistment (and if he was E-4 or below) when into a restricted file to help protect the young and dumb if they messed up early in their careers. Too many people had one come and bite them in the butt when they put in for higher promotions later on in life so they came up with that cool little rule. Not sure if it's still that way now though.

On a side note, have you ever put in to have it removed? It's possible these days.

t.

[OneLight]

Let's also remember that it was the SEAL team that requested this trial. If they had taken a Captain Mast, then they would be saying they are guilty. They are here to prove their innocence.

exactly.... Capt Mast if NJP, which is pretty much does not follow them, but can cost them their paygrade or even two, cost them 1/2 months pay for several months, and even brig time and or restriction time....

most people call, NJP as "Guilty until proven innocent" and Courts Marshal is "Innocent until proven guilty"

yes, with the NJP, it may have been nothing more then a slap on the wrist, or a bust and brig time, maybe even working parties (kind of like the ol' chain gangs, with out the chains).... but yet, it can be the principle of the thing.....

It would also remain on their record forever, which is what they did not want. They choose this avenue for this reason.

Not necessarily.

When military folks accept an Article 15, or a Captain's Mast in the Navy, they are NOT admitting guilt in any way. The determination of guilt is on the shoulders of the Commander who is responsible for the proceedings. These proceedings are completely Military in nature and considered Nonjudicial. In other words, if found guilty during the proceedings, that finding would not be recognized as a Federal crime like the results of a Guilty verdict in a Court Martial would be.

These proceedings were designed to keep order and deal with issues that were related to mostly military matters or minor offenses which were related more towards Military regulations as opposed to the civilian version of similar laws.

At the start of the proceedings, the Commander reads the accusations, and clearly tells the offender that he does not have to accept the proceedings and can, instead, request a trial by Courts Martial. If the offender accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she is then given time (usually 48 hours) to seek legal counsel, and then Part 2 kicks in. If the offender again decides to accept the proceedings and refuses a trial, the Commander then will decide whether or not the person is guilty of the charges. If the Commander decides the person is guilty, the Commander then decides on the punishment/s to impose. These punishments have a determined range based on the level of grade of the proceedings (Company Grade, Field Grade, etc.).

Here's the important part: The Commander can, at his discretion, choose to suspend any punishments he or she imposes and further more can also put the person on probation and set a time frame with it. In other words, the Commander can impose punishment, suspend the actions for a determined time and then wipe the record clean if the person successfully carries out his end of the bargain.

Even more importantly, if the accused accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she can request an open hearing and can have anyone he wants in there with him during the proceedings as a witness on his behalf, or simply as an audience. During that proceeding, the Commander will listen to all witnesses called forth, and then will make a determination of guilt or innocence. An accused Military member has every right to make one of three choices when first presented with charges under Article 15 (or Captain's Mast): Guilty, Not Guilty, or No Contest. An accused Military member can plead Not Guilty and force the Commander to have an open hearing at any time during the proceedings until he changes his plea to guilty.

In summary, accepting an Article 15 or Captain's Mast is not an admission of guilt by any means. It's simply a lower form of informal court the Military uses to deal with Military-related issues of discipline. As well, the results of such a proceeding do not have to stay on the Military member's permanent record. Basically, it's up to the Commander who is conducting the proceedings- everything from the decision to go forward with the proceedings, the determination of guilt or innocence, right down to the punishment/s imposed, if any.

Now, here's my humble opinion on this subject at hand. Their Commander could have drawn up the Captain's Mast, brought these Sailors into his office, read them the charges, gave them the time to go to JAG, brought them back into his office two days later, re-read the charges, and then find them Not Guilty due to lack of evidence. Case closed.

Sadly, these Sailors felt that it wouldn't be so simple, or they felt that it wouldn't go in their favor, so they felt forced to bring this to a higher court. Here is where I find it hard to comment accurately because I don't know the specifics of the case, and neither do many of us. We can guess, but that's about it until the trial comes and we read about the proceedings.

It's possible that these Sailors figured that they were being railroaded due to political correctness, or whatever reason, and felt that they wanted their day in court to prove their case. They also might have been talked to by someone and offered a deal where they would be punished in some small way just so the Navy can say they did something about the issue. They might have determined that they did nothing wrong and refused to accept guilt in the matter. All of this is speculation at this point.

Personally, I feel they were leaned on to accept a Captain's Mast and they felt like they were not guilty of whatever charges were being imposed on them and decided to fight it out in court for better or worse. I also personally feel that prosecuting these Sailors for this petty nonsense, even if remotely guilty, shows a distinct lack of character within the legal community of the United States Navy. To slap these Sailors in the face with such petty charges in the middle of a war is not only a travesty, but also tells me that it might just be time to pull up our stakes and return home once and for all. If this is the best we can do for our nation's elite, then the common Sailor, Soldier, Marine, or Airman doesn't stand a chance in hell.

t.

I have been in a Captain's Mast myself. It remains on my permanent record today. That is what I am talking about, not that it will follow them into their general life, but their military records.

Yes, but it was the Commander's decision to put it there. I have several myself, some made it, and some didn't because the Commander chose to suspend the punishments and then wipe the AR.15 if I was a good boy for 6 months

That was my point though, it doesn't necessarily have to go in your permanent military records.

On top of that, there was a time not so long ago where the first AR.15 a Soldier got while still in his first enlistment (and if he was E-4 or below) when into a restricted file to help protect the young and dumb if they messed up early in their careers. Too many people had one come and bite them in the butt when they put in for higher promotions later on in life so they came up with that cool little rule. Not sure if it's still that way now though.

On a side note, have you ever put in to have it removed? It's possible these days.

t.

Ummm ... I can't even get on a base ... I lost complete security. I was a baaaaad boooooy ...

[ted]

Let's also remember that it was the SEAL team that requested this trial. If they had taken a Captain Mast, then they would be saying they are guilty. They are here to prove their innocence.

exactly.... Capt Mast if NJP, which is pretty much does not follow them, but can cost them their paygrade or even two, cost them 1/2 months pay for several months, and even brig time and or restriction time....

most people call, NJP as "Guilty until proven innocent" and Courts Marshal is "Innocent until proven guilty"

yes, with the NJP, it may have been nothing more then a slap on the wrist, or a bust and brig time, maybe even working parties (kind of like the ol' chain gangs, with out the chains).... but yet, it can be the principle of the thing.....

It would also remain on their record forever, which is what they did not want. They choose this avenue for this reason.

Not necessarily.

When military folks accept an Article 15, or a Captain's Mast in the Navy, they are NOT admitting guilt in any way. The determination of guilt is on the shoulders of the Commander who is responsible for the proceedings. These proceedings are completely Military in nature and considered Nonjudicial. In other words, if found guilty during the proceedings, that finding would not be recognized as a Federal crime like the results of a Guilty verdict in a Court Martial would be.

These proceedings were designed to keep order and deal with issues that were related to mostly military matters or minor offenses which were related more towards Military regulations as opposed to the civilian version of similar laws.

At the start of the proceedings, the Commander reads the accusations, and clearly tells the offender that he does not have to accept the proceedings and can, instead, request a trial by Courts Martial. If the offender accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she is then given time (usually 48 hours) to seek legal counsel, and then Part 2 kicks in. If the offender again decides to accept the proceedings and refuses a trial, the Commander then will decide whether or not the person is guilty of the charges. If the Commander decides the person is guilty, the Commander then decides on the punishment/s to impose. These punishments have a determined range based on the level of grade of the proceedings (Company Grade, Field Grade, etc.).

Here's the important part: The Commander can, at his discretion, choose to suspend any punishments he or she imposes and further more can also put the person on probation and set a time frame with it. In other words, the Commander can impose punishment, suspend the actions for a determined time and then wipe the record clean if the person successfully carries out his end of the bargain.

Even more importantly, if the accused accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she can request an open hearing and can have anyone he wants in there with him during the proceedings as a witness on his behalf, or simply as an audience. During that proceeding, the Commander will listen to all witnesses called forth, and then will make a determination of guilt or innocence. An accused Military member has every right to make one of three choices when first presented with charges under Article 15 (or Captain's Mast): Guilty, Not Guilty, or No Contest. An accused Military member can plead Not Guilty and force the Commander to have an open hearing at any time during the proceedings until he changes his plea to guilty.

In summary, accepting an Article 15 or Captain's Mast is not an admission of guilt by any means. It's simply a lower form of informal court the Military uses to deal with Military-related issues of discipline. As well, the results of such a proceeding do not have to stay on the Military member's permanent record. Basically, it's up to the Commander who is conducting the proceedings- everything from the decision to go forward with the proceedings, the determination of guilt or innocence, right down to the punishment/s imposed, if any.

Now, here's my humble opinion on this subject at hand. Their Commander could have drawn up the Captain's Mast, brought these Sailors into his office, read them the charges, gave them the time to go to JAG, brought them back into his office two days later, re-read the charges, and then find them Not Guilty due to lack of evidence. Case closed.

Sadly, these Sailors felt that it wouldn't be so simple, or they felt that it wouldn't go in their favor, so they felt forced to bring this to a higher court. Here is where I find it hard to comment accurately because I don't know the specifics of the case, and neither do many of us. We can guess, but that's about it until the trial comes and we read about the proceedings.

It's possible that these Sailors figured that they were being railroaded due to political correctness, or whatever reason, and felt that they wanted their day in court to prove their case. They also might have been talked to by someone and offered a deal where they would be punished in some small way just so the Navy can say they did something about the issue. They might have determined that they did nothing wrong and refused to accept guilt in the matter. All of this is speculation at this point.

Personally, I feel they were leaned on to accept a Captain's Mast and they felt like they were not guilty of whatever charges were being imposed on them and decided to fight it out in court for better or worse. I also personally feel that prosecuting these Sailors for this petty nonsense, even if remotely guilty, shows a distinct lack of character within the legal community of the United States Navy. To slap these Sailors in the face with such petty charges in the middle of a war is not only a travesty, but also tells me that it might just be time to pull up our stakes and return home once and for all. If this is the best we can do for our nation's elite, then the common Sailor, Soldier, Marine, or Airman doesn't stand a chance in hell.

t.

I have been in a Captain's Mast myself. It remains on my permanent record today. That is what I am talking about, not that it will follow them into their general life, but their military records.

Yes, but it was the Commander's decision to put it there. I have several myself, some made it, and some didn't because the Commander chose to suspend the punishments and then wipe the AR.15 if I was a good boy for 6 months

That was my point though, it doesn't necessarily have to go in your permanent military records.

On top of that, there was a time not so long ago where the first AR.15 a Soldier got while still in his first enlistment (and if he was E-4 or below) when into a restricted file to help protect the young and dumb if they messed up early in their careers. Too many people had one come and bite them in the butt when they put in for higher promotions later on in life so they came up with that cool little rule. Not sure if it's still that way now though.

On a side note, have you ever put in to have it removed? It's possible these days.

t.

Ummm ... I can't even get on a base ... I lost complete security. I was a baaaaad boooooy ...

lol no, you dn't have to get on base to do it. You send your request to where your permanent records are kept. For the Active Army, it was in St Louis. Not sure where the Navy keeps them.

Tailhook conventions maybe?

t.

PS- you might even be able to upgrade the discharge, depending on a number of factors.

[OneLight]

Let's also remember that it was the SEAL team that requested this trial. If they had taken a Captain Mast, then they would be saying they are guilty. They are here to prove their innocence.

exactly.... Capt Mast if NJP, which is pretty much does not follow them, but can cost them their paygrade or even two, cost them 1/2 months pay for several months, and even brig time and or restriction time....

most people call, NJP as "Guilty until proven innocent" and Courts Marshal is "Innocent until proven guilty"

yes, with the NJP, it may have been nothing more then a slap on the wrist, or a bust and brig time, maybe even working parties (kind of like the ol' chain gangs, with out the chains).... but yet, it can be the principle of the thing.....

It would also remain on their record forever, which is what they did not want. They choose this avenue for this reason.

Not necessarily.

When military folks accept an Article 15, or a Captain's Mast in the Navy, they are NOT admitting guilt in any way. The determination of guilt is on the shoulders of the Commander who is responsible for the proceedings. These proceedings are completely Military in nature and considered Nonjudicial. In other words, if found guilty during the proceedings, that finding would not be recognized as a Federal crime like the results of a Guilty verdict in a Court Martial would be.

These proceedings were designed to keep order and deal with issues that were related to mostly military matters or minor offenses which were related more towards Military regulations as opposed to the civilian version of similar laws.

At the start of the proceedings, the Commander reads the accusations, and clearly tells the offender that he does not have to accept the proceedings and can, instead, request a trial by Courts Martial. If the offender accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she is then given time (usually 48 hours) to seek legal counsel, and then Part 2 kicks in. If the offender again decides to accept the proceedings and refuses a trial, the Commander then will decide whether or not the person is guilty of the charges. If the Commander decides the person is guilty, the Commander then decides on the punishment/s to impose. These punishments have a determined range based on the level of grade of the proceedings (Company Grade, Field Grade, etc.).

Here's the important part: The Commander can, at his discretion, choose to suspend any punishments he or she imposes and further more can also put the person on probation and set a time frame with it. In other words, the Commander can impose punishment, suspend the actions for a determined time and then wipe the record clean if the person successfully carries out his end of the bargain.

Even more importantly, if the accused accepts the Captain's Mast, he or she can request an open hearing and can have anyone he wants in there with him during the proceedings as a witness on his behalf, or simply as an audience. During that proceeding, the Commander will listen to all witnesses called forth, and then will make a determination of guilt or innocence. An accused Military member has every right to make one of three choices when first presented with charges under Article 15 (or Captain's Mast): Guilty, Not Guilty, or No Contest. An accused Military member can plead Not Guilty and force the Commander to have an open hearing at any time during the proceedings until he changes his plea to guilty.

In summary, accepting an Article 15 or Captain's Mast is not an admission of guilt by any means. It's simply a lower form of informal court the Military uses to deal with Military-related issues of discipline. As well, the results of such a proceeding do not have to stay on the Military member's permanent record. Basically, it's up to the Commander who is conducting the proceedings- everything from the decision to go forward with the proceedings, the determination of guilt or innocence, right down to the punishment/s imposed, if any.

Now, here's my humble opinion on this subject at hand. Their Commander could have drawn up the Captain's Mast, brought these Sailors into his office, read them the charges, gave them the time to go to JAG, brought them back into his office two days later, re-read the charges, and then find them Not Guilty due to lack of evidence. Case closed.

Sadly, these Sailors felt that it wouldn't be so simple, or they felt that it wouldn't go in their favor, so they felt forced to bring this to a higher court. Here is where I find it hard to comment accurately because I don't know the specifics of the case, and neither do many of us. We can guess, but that's about it until the trial comes and we read about the proceedings.

It's possible that these Sailors figured that they were being railroaded due to political correctness, or whatever reason, and felt that they wanted their day in court to prove their case. They also might have been talked to by someone and offered a deal where they would be punished in some small way just so the Navy can say they did something about the issue. They might have determined that they did nothing wrong and refused to accept guilt in the matter. All of this is speculation at this point.

Personally, I feel they were leaned on to accept a Captain's Mast and they felt like they were not guilty of whatever charges were being imposed on them and decided to fight it out in court for better or worse. I also personally feel that prosecuting these Sailors for this petty nonsense, even if remotely guilty, shows a distinct lack of character within the legal community of the United States Navy. To slap these Sailors in the face with such petty charges in the middle of a war is not only a travesty, but also tells me that it might just be time to pull up our stakes and return home once and for all. If this is the best we can do for our nation's elite, then the common Sailor, Soldier, Marine, or Airman doesn't stand a chance in hell.

t.

I have been in a Captain's Mast myself. It remains on my permanent record today. That is what I am talking about, not that it will follow them into their general life, but their military records.

Yes, but it was the Commander's decision to put it there. I have several myself, some made it, and some didn't because the Commander chose to suspend the punishments and then wipe the AR.15 if I was a good boy for 6 months

That was my point though, it doesn't necessarily have to go in your permanent military records.

On top of that, there was a time not so long ago where the first AR.15 a Soldier got while still in his first enlistment (and if he was E-4 or below) when into a restricted file to help protect the young and dumb if they messed up early in their careers. Too many people had one come and bite them in the butt when they put in for higher promotions later on in life so they came up with that cool little rule. Not sure if it's still that way now though.

On a side note, have you ever put in to have it removed? It's possible these days.

t.

Ummm ... I can't even get on a base ... I lost complete security. I was a baaaaad boooooy ...

lol no, you dn't have to get on base to do it. You send your request to where your permanent records are kept. For the Active Army, it was in St Louis. Not sure where the Navy keeps them.

Tailhook conventions maybe?

t.

PS- you might even be able to upgrade the discharge, depending on a number of factors.

After a long fight, I was released with a General under Honorable Conditions, which is fine for me ... I really don't want to open that can of worms again. The Government and I agreed to this and I will stick to it ... thanks!

[ted]

Werd.

t.

[Axxman]

I have no idea if they are guilty.

But earlier you said the Seals were.

Axxman

Maybe none of this wouldn't have happened if they hadn't done it in the first place.

It's good to see you have "apparently" changed your mind.

The words "maybe" and "if" are pretty important ones in my sentence. Like I said before, I was merely offering countering scenario's to explain why I wasn't signing. There is nothing to change my mind about. I am certain you couldn't find any quotes by me that claimed these guys "guilty" or you would have posted that one instead.

You still are making insinuations and accusations pertaining to the Seals that have not been substantiated by a court.

Yes, I guess you could say I am insinuating...The Navy is insinuating too. I am merely supporting the US Military's right to bring this matter to court. I am acting as though there could be truth to the accusation...you are acting as if it doesn't matter if there is truth to the accusation. It does matter....

You do not know how this AlQuaeda terrorist received his alleged bloody lip. No one does. This has already been pointed out by me in a previous post. And IF one of the Seals did do it, it could very likely have been in self-defense while the AlQaeda terrorist was being resistive, which is perfectly legal.

If they did do it? It could very likely have been? You don't know either... Yes, they very well could be found innocent. They could be cleared and still get those medals. However, the Navy investigated and dug up some witnesses and believe differently for some reason. I believe that reasoning should be heard in court.

Unless you have walked a mile in their shoes, and endured the same stress, hardships and life threatening situation fighting AlQaeda terrorists in a God forsaken land, I don't think you are in a position to make that judgment call.

Well...the US Military is in a position to make that call and they charged these men with crimes. I support the whole US Military.

I don't care about the truth.? Those are your words, not mine. But, I'd take the word of our elite Navy Seals over an AlQaeda terrorist trained to lie. These charges should never have come about in the first place.

Do you seriously think that this guy made an accusation and that the Navy just took his word for it and arrested these guys? You can't really believe that. The Navy investigated the guys claims and very likely believed them to be bogus. It was during the investigation that they found witnesses, and found inconsistencies that led them to believe that these guys broke the law...broke the code. Now it will take a court of law to determine if the witnesses and the evidence are worthy...but you seem intent on avoiding that discovery of truth. Of course, you take the word of the Navy Seals over Al Qaeda...apparently their word trumps everybody in the US Military too.

I think it's good to sign the petition if only to show our Navy Seals that we support them, although I doubt if will have any effect in cancelling the prosecution of our guys. It's just as well, because there is no choice but to carry on now as some people in the political correct establishment will remain suspicious if our Navy Seals are not properly cleared via of a trial and will suspect foul play of "hiding something".

If they are guilty...I don't support them. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with some politically correct conspiracy theory. Plain and simple.

And that's what you based your one-sided guilty verdict on in your previous post? You have no idea what went on in that cell. What the media is reporting "he said, she said"

thing?

LoL...no. However, if there are witnesses that are going to testify to something different than what these Seals are saying...don't you want to hear it? Why do you place so much faith in 3 Seals that you don't know...and place absolute distrust in the other fine men and women who serve our country just as bravely? Why sign a petition to avoiding discovering the truth? Why place so much faith in their innocence without anything to base it on?

Let the trial happen and pray for justice.

[Axxman]

Here's an update from today:

Government Has Yet to Provide Evidence to Support Its Prosecution of Navy Seals for Alleged Punching of Terrorist

Norfolk, Va. (CNSNews.com)

[irishcowboy]

Here's an update from today:

Government Has Yet to Provide Evidence to Support Its Prosecution of Navy Seals for Alleged Punching of Terrorist

Norfolk, Va. (CNSNews.com)