Restoration of the Church

[Guest yod]

I think I'll stick with the King James Version. And I don't take "church" in the strictest sense of the word. "Community," "gathering" and/or "congregation" are easily interchanged with "church." After all, the "Church" is a community of Christians, and a gathering of Christians, and a congregation of Christians. It has nothing to do with Catholicism, as you claim. Statements like that, IMO, are what divide the "Church."

Choose error if you'd like.

The division came a long time ago by way of translation. All I want is the pure Word.

[lekh l'kha]

Isaiah 58:11-12 The Lord will guide you always; he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden, like a spring whose waters never fail. Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.

What is your take on this scripture?

Do you believe the church has been restored, is currently being restored, or has yet to be restored?

What is the reference to "ancient ruins" and "age-old foundations" mean?

The church has nothing to be restored to - except to sound Biblical doctrine regarding Israel. But the church is not broken off from the Olive tree:

"And if some of the branches (of Israel) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them (among the remnant of Israel mentioned in Rom.11: 1-5)), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" (Rom 11:17)

It's that part of Israel which has been broken off that needs to be restored:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in...

... And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins....

... As concerning the gospel, they (the natural seed of Israel who do not believe the gospel) are enemies for your (the Gentiles') sakes (UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in): but as touching the election (God's eternal election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's seed), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes (for the sake of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because of the promise of God, and for the sake of all the faithful prophets of Israel)...

... For the gifts (grace) and calling (election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's seed) of God are without repentance. For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the natural branches of the olive tree's) unbelief: Even so have these (the natural seed) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."

(Rom 11:25-31)

The verses speak of nothing more OR LESS than what they speak of - the restoration of Israel, and the restoration to the land of Israel which was promised by God as the eternal inheritance of the natural seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The promise contained in the prophecy WAS NOT fulfilled in accordance with God's wording of the promise/prophecy in the time of the Persian king XerXes or ateXerxes - it's still to be fulfilled.

[Guest yod]

He came that we would have faith in the God of Israel....not a religious system with a hierarchy of men separated from the laity.

When I say things like that, if you didn't know me better, you might think that I'm anti-church....but let me assure you that I'm not. I am pro-community!

If there is anything I'm against it's a humanistic religioun because of the difference between that and a community of people who love God and each other.

Obviously there is such a thing as a specifically christian religious organization that makes a separation from Israel today called "the Church". Many churches make that separation by claiming themselves to be Israel, which delegitimizes the jewish people having an inheritance whether they realize it or not. But even many churches that have a love for Israel read the scriptures as if our fate is unattached to Israel's because of this translation.

I'm not unaware of the obvious, nor am I hostile towards the Church. It's wise to have men and women dedicated to serving saints in teaching or praise music or counseling or prayer any of the wonderful things our local congregations do.

I'm just pointing out that we do that particular program because it's how we, christians, have decided would be best. There is no holy commandment that says we must meet in a building on Sunday for an hour or two and perform rituals and liturgy...and then give money for having received an inspirational speech and some praise music.

We meet because we want to be with each other or it's vanity. We give because the love of God compels us to give, or it has no eternal value whatsoever. We love because God has given us a measure of grace to be able to love. We gather because we want to gather with other saints or it's a total waste of time that could be better spent watching Dallas Cowboys reruns instead.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Compulsory attendance of a religious establishment is found nowhere in the bible yet by translating words that actually mean "community" or "large gathering" or "meeting place" into the word "church", christians have been conditioned to think it's there. And this is what gives people the notion that God is satisfied by our church attendance somehow. Some even think that it's all He requires!? (Not saying that about anyone here specifically though, ok?)

All that aside, our separation from Israel through the usage of this translational error is the root of why we don't live in community already, imo. We, the gentiles, made our own religious institution and called it "the church" and it was supreme once Israel was literally destroyed by the Romans.

And now, as long everything revolves around "us" (humanism disguised as christianity), then it's hunky dory

But I believe that the way 12 Apostles changed the world was through community and we've lost sight of our Lord's intent (john 17) at least partly because of the way these words have been translated.

What we need are communities of people in relationship to each other instead of a large audience being preached at.

[lekh l'kha]

He came that we would have faith in the God of Israel....not a religious system with a hierarchy of men separated from the laity.

When I say things like that, if you didn't know me better, you might think that I'm anti-church....but let me assure you that I'm not. I am pro-community!

If there is anything I'm against it's a humanistic religioun because of the difference between that and a community of people who love God and each other.

Obviously there is such a thing as a specifically christian religious organization that makes a separation from Israel today called "the Church". Many churches make that separation by claiming themselves to be Israel, which delegitimizes the jewish people having an inheritance whether they realize it or not. But even many churches that have a love for Israel read the scriptures as if our fate is unattached to Israel's because of this translation.

I'm not unaware of the obvious, nor am I hostile towards the Church. It's wise to have men and women dedicated to serving saints in teaching or praise music or counseling or prayer any of the wonderful things our local congregations do.

I'm just pointing out that we do that particular program because it's how we, christians, have decided would be best. There is no holy commandment that says we must meet in a building on Sunday for an hour or two and perform rituals and liturgy...and then give money for having received an inspirational speech and some praise music.

We meet because we want to be with each other or it's vanity. We give because the love of God compels us to give, or it has no eternal value whatsoever. We love because God has given us a measure of grace to be able to love. We gather because we want to gather with other saints or it's a total waste of time that could be better spent watching Dallas Cowboys reruns instead.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Compulsory attendance of a religious establishment is found nowhere in the bible yet by translating words that actually mean "community" or "large gathering" or "meeting place" into the word "church", christians have been conditioned to think it's there. And this is what gives people the notion that God is satisfied by our church attendance somehow. Some even think that it's all He requires!? (Not saying that about anyone here specifically though, ok?)

All that aside, our separation from Israel through the usage of this translational error is the root of why we don't live in community already, imo. We, the gentiles, made our own religious institution and called it "the church" and it was supreme once Israel was literally destroyed by the Romans.

And now, as long everything revolves around "us" (humanism disguised as christianity), then it's hunky dory

But I believe that the way 12 Apostles changed the world was through community and we've lost sight of our Lord's intent (john 17) at least partly because of the way these words have been translated.

What we need are communities of people in relationship to each other instead of a large audience being preached at.

AMEN

[Fez]

What we need are communities of people in relationship to each other instead of a large audience being preached at.

Thats exactly what we need!

Act 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,

Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

[~Shalhevet~]

So "Israel" does not mean "us", correct? Just trying to get a better understanding.

[Fez]

So "Israel" does not mean "us", correct? Just trying to get a better understanding.

Your point being?

[~Shalhevet~]

"Us" meaning the "church, community, gathering, etc."

[mizzdy]

All that aside, our separation from Israel through the usage of this translational error is the root of why we don't live in community already, imo. We, the gentiles, made our own religious institution and called it "the church" and it was supreme once Israel was literally destroyed by the Romans.

And now, as long everything revolves around "us" (christianity), then it's hunky dory

But I believe that the way 12 Apostles changed the world was through community and we've lost sight of our Lord's intent (john 17) at least partly because of the way these words have been translated.

Amen! Completely agree with you.

[Guest yod]

So "Israel" does not mean "us", correct? Just trying to get a better understanding.

It doesn't mean "us" (the church) but it does INCLUDE "us" (the nations joined to Israel through the remnant)

Ephesians 2:11-17