Cain and Able

[Bold Believer]

Who did Cain marry? I stand corrected, the Bible does not say if Able got married. Thanks nubula So where did the people of Nod come from?

If you answered something other then sister, where did they come from?

If you said sister, is God the same today, yesterday, and forever? Is incest O.K today?

1. Cain was ALREADY married. Many people don't realize this. Both of the brothers were full-grown men, involved in their own lifestyle and work-choice. They were not children.

2. Adam and eve had other sons and daughters which are never mentioned by name. A long period of time had passed (about 130 years or a little less) before this incident took place and A&E were grandparents, probably GREAT grandparents and possibly even double or triple great grandparents, as people were not dying off very fast and were multiplying. So Cain probably married a cousin and not a near sister.

[OneLight]

Who did Cain marry? I stand corrected, the Bible does not say if Able got married. Thanks nubula So where did the people of Nod come from?

If you answered something other then sister, where did they come from?

If you said sister, is God the same today, yesterday, and forever? Is incest O.K today?

1. Cain was ALREADY married. Many people don't realize this. Both of the brothers were full-grown men, involved in their own lifestyle and work-choice. They were not children.

2. Adam and eve had other sons and daughters which are never mentioned by name. A long period of time had passed (about 130 years or a little less) before this incident took place and A&E were grandparents, probably GREAT grandparents and possibly even double or triple great grandparents, as people were not dying off very fast and were multiplying. So Cain probably married a cousin and not a near sister.

Can you provide scripture for this statement?

I will also suggest that Genesis 5 be read to clarify what scripture does and does not say about Adams family line. You will notice that neither Cain nor Able were mentioned. Something to consider when we make statements of who and when. We all can speculate all we want, but when we do, please state that it is your opinion to clear up the misunderstanding that you found something in scripture, so we won't keep asking where you found it ...

[Bold Believer]

Look at the time line. Adam was just shy of 130 when the murder took place. That gives he and Eve plenty of time to be fruitful and multiply. We are told that they had 'other sons and daughters.' This tells us that there was a growing and thriving community of people also obeying the mandate of Genesis to do so.

Understand that these people would have married fairly young. For a man to 14-15 and be a father would most likely not have been uncommon. Early on, there most likely was intermarriage between near-relatives. It is therefore possible that Cain married a sister or a cousin.

How do I know Cain was married before he left? The wording of Gen 4:16-17.

Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son--Enoch.

Even though the English 'and' is not present in the Hebrew, it is implied by the continuation of thought. This and the fact that the two were full grown men (not teenagers as we're often led to believe) tells me that Cain was married and took his wife along with him, as opposed to finding a wife in Nod, a ridiculous supposition imposed on the text by those trying to avoid the incest question.

[OneLight]

Look at the time line. Adam was just shy of 130 when the murder took place. That gives he and Eve plenty of time to be fruitful and multiply. We are told that they had 'other sons and daughters.' This tells us that there was a growing and thriving community of people also obeying the mandate of Genesis to do so.

Understand that these people would have married fairly young. For a man to 14-15 and be a father would most likely not have been uncommon. Early on, there most likely was intermarriage between near-relatives. It is therefore possible that Cain married a sister or a cousin.

How do I know Cain was married before he left? The wording of Gen 4:16-17.

Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son--Enoch.

Even though the English 'and' is not present in the Hebrew, it is implied by the continuation of thought. This and the fact that the two were full grown men (not teenagers as we're often led to believe) tells me that Cain was married and took his wife along with him, as opposed to finding a wife in Nod, a ridiculous supposition imposed on the text by those trying to avoid the incest question.

Your words contradict scripture.

First, I am not arguing that they were not full grown men. They had to be if they had the responsibilities they had. Yet, just because they were of an older age, you, nor I, can say that they were married because of their age, so that is speculation on the part of the one claiming marriage. That would be an opinion, for scripture does not say they were. You will notice that that throughout scripture, when one is married, it is stated, so them not being married give more weight then them being married, if we are going to speculate.

You can not place verses 16-17 before verse 8, no matter how hard you try. The fact that Cain's wife is not mentioned until after he settled in Nod leads us to see that he did not meet her until then. Would not scripture mention that Cain took his family and left to Nod if he had already had one?

If you look at scripture as it is written, you will notice that Adam and Eve had many other sons and daughter, but this is stated after the fact that they bore Seth, not before. Again, lineage was important to them. If they had many sons and daughters before Seth, scripture would of mentioned this.

Let's' look at scripture about the other children.

Genesis 5:1-5 (New King James Version)

The Family of Adam

1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. 4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

This is the only place where scripture tells us of their other scripture. Notice the wording in verse 4 ... stating that after he begot Seth, he had sons and daughters. You place these others before where scripture places them.

[Bold Believer]

There is no mention of either Cain OR Abel in Genesis 5 either, only that Adam fathered a son in his own image at 130 years of age. Are we therefore to conclude that neither Cain nor Abel existed?

Obviously, Cain had a wife BEFORE Seth came along. The Gen 5 account doesn't state when the other sons and daughters came into existence. They could have been born before or after Seth. That the text says Seth was in Adam's image and not God's says a lot. You are only concluding that these other children came about after Seth because of the order in which the statement was placed by the writer.

If we take the Gen 5 account by itself, you'd be correct, but do you really believe that for 130 years, Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel were the only people? Given the command to be fruitful and multiply, I can't buy that. It doesn't make any sense.

There is another question in that wording. Who is the "he" in Gen 5:4, Adam? or Seth? There is a semi-colon there, so the 'he' MIGHT not be Adam at all, but Seth.

4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.

Some versions read 'other' sons and daughters. I'm more inclined to believe the text refers to Adam, but I don't believe that Adam had no other children other than Cain and Abel until after Abel was murdered.

Just because Cain's wife was not mentioned as going with him doesn't mean that she was not alive at the time. From the text, I can conclude that Cain had no children at the time, or that any he may have had were very young, OR that they were all older and married off by the time the killing occurred and that Cain decided to father more children when he got to Nod.

[OneLight]

There is no mention of either Cain OR Abel in Genesis 5 either, only that Adam fathered a son in his own image at 130 years of age. Are we therefore to conclude that neither Cain nor Abel existed?

You have to be kidding ... chapter 4 debunks your sarcasm. Let's approach this in the right light ...

Obviously, Cain had a wife BEFORE Seth came along. The Gen 5 account doesn't state when the other sons and daughters came into existence. They could have been born before or after Seth. That the text says Seth was in Adam's image and not God's says a lot. You are only concluding that these other children came about after Seth because of the order in which the statement was placed by the writer.

Nobody is saying that Cain did not have a wife before Seth was born, just that he was not married until after the death of Able.

Edited to add that scripture is written by the inspiration of God through the Holy Spirit. I will stand on how He desired to present this information to us, not on how anyone wishes to read it.

If we take the Gen 5 account by itself, you'd be correct. Do you really believe that for 130 years, Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel were the only people? Given the command to be fruitful and multiply, I can't buy that. It doesn't make any sense.

What I have been saying is that we can not assume to fill in the blanks as you have been, or change what scripture tells us, and call it fact. The truth is, we do not know beyond scripture. Anyone could come up with hundreds of different possibilities, all that could be probable, but that is all it would be ... opinions and assumptions based on probabilities.

The reason why I suggested that we state that a certain statement is scripture or opinion would allow us to discuss them in that light. Refusal to do so only leads to confusion.

We have the right to our opinions, but we do not have the right to state our opinions and assumptions as facts.

[Axxman]

it wasn't incest then, axxman. God had not declared it as sinful. you are speculating that God created other humans from the dust of the earth... and that's fine, as long as you recognize that not everyone is going to agree with you, and in fact, the majority do not. for the record, and i'd rather not turn this into a lengthy debate but just leave it as it is, leviticus says that to have relations with a close relative (parent/sibling/aunt) dishonors another person. (to have sex with your father's wife dishonors your father... to have sex with your descendant dishonors yourself... etc). only homosexual sex and beastiality sex are referred to as detestable and/or perverse. so does God "hate" it? scripture doesn't say that. so even scripturally, there's nothing that suggests to me that my supposition (which is in agreement with most theologians) is incorrect.

and in general, that whole 'other civilization' theory is the basis for the whole lilith thing.

You are implying that God tacitly approved of having incestuous relations for the first 1500 years of humanity...because the word hadn't been defined yet? Well, God didn't define murder before the whole Cain and Abel deal went down...and yet it still displeased God and Cain still got in trouble for it. Are we to believe that God tacitly approved of killing up to that point...or that it magically wasn't considered murder until God announced it. No...murder is murder, incest is incest...and God disapproves of both.

The bible also very clearly shows that God was willing to create another human. There is no speculation in that. Adam was flying solo for quite a while before God decided to create Eve. Heck, Adam had named ALL the created creatures by the time the Lord decided that He should create Eve. The bible plainly shows that God in His infinite wisdom would create a human for His purposes. God would no more approve of incest, than He would of murder.

For the record...I don't believe in the "other civilization" theory any more than I believe that God allowed incest. I merely believe that God would not have allowed incest any more than He allowed murder...before it was defined.

[Bold Believer]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was stating a fact. Gen 5 doesn't mention Cain OR Abel. Obviously Ch 4 tells us that they DID exist, but Ch 5 only deals with Seth onward. (I admit, I wonder why.)

If you are correct, then that opens up a whole new can of worms: If Cain didn't marry until after Abel's murder, WHERE DID THE WOMAN COME FROM? There would have only been Adam, Eve and Cain. Cain built an entire city by himself? Come on.

Also, Cain was afraid that someone would demand justice for Abel's death. Why be afraid of someone who wouldn't come along for years if there were no other persons in the world than Adam and Eve? It makes more sense that Cain would have been afraid of someone who was alive and able to exact vengeance for Abel. In other words: One or more of their brothers who might have been close to Abel, or perhaps one or more of Abel's children who were alive at the time. We don't know absolutely that Abel was married, but we don't know that he wasn't either.

I am only drawing conclusions, admittedly assumptions, based on what I read in Genesis. I don't believe that I've stretched anything beyond what is written. (i.e.: Cain's wife was not an alien or part of another group of people created)

[nebula]

if there were no laws of offerings (in this case a burnt offering) then why do you suppose Noah made a burnt offering the first time he got off the ark (gen 8:20)?

Where did he learn that? Why didn't the children do the burnt offering instead of Noah who was the head?

They were passing the offering ritual/ceremony down from Father to son.

The Scriptures do not mention the Lord commanding offerings nor how to perform such sacrifices.

When did Adam offer a sacrifice?

Sure, it mentions that the Lord killed an animal to provide skin covering for Adam and Eve, but it says nothing about what was done with the rest of the animal.

God accepted the sweet savor from Noah and Cain because it was blood....

I believe you meant Abel rather than Cain? But nonetheless...

Lev. 2

1 " 'When someone brings a grain offering to the Lord, his offering is to be of fine flour. He is to pour oil on it, put incense on it 2 and take it to Aaron's sons the priests. The priest shall take a handful of the fine flour and oil, together with all the incense, and burn this as a memorial portion on the altar, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord....

Just pointing out that grains were acceptable offerings as well.

when i say head i mean head of household.

Who were Abel's children, and why does scripture not mention them?

[nebula]

If i'm crazy then so be it.

I never liked the "bible is silent" thing. The bible reveals.

True - but I likewise do not like when people claim "it is" for things not recorded. Why? Because most cults are established on things "revealed" to them that are not directly written.

That is why I have learned to be very careful about claiming "it is" for what others claim are "revealed" as you say or "implied" from Scripture.