Guns/killing/Christianity

[Fez]

(Matthew 5:39)

[josephine tomczuk]

Matthew 26

⁵¹And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

⁵²Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

⁵³Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

^{Luke 22}

⁴⁹When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

⁵⁰And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.

⁵¹And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

John 18

¹⁰Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

¹¹Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

[josephine tomczuk]

Matthew 26

⁵¹And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

⁵²Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

⁵³Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

^{Luke 22}

⁴⁹When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

⁵⁰And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.

⁵¹And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.

John 18

¹⁰Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

¹¹Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

It would be helpful if you used scripture in context and handled it wisely instead of plunking it down as a stand-alone to defend a position it does not defend. The verses you used are not proof-texts against self-defense as so many pacifists attempt to use them. The reason Jesus admonishes Peter not to use his sword is because Peter is trying to circumvent something that has to happen, that is inevitable. Jesus came to die on the cross and Peter is trying to stop that from happening. It says that specifically in John 18:11. Jesus would have rebuked Peter had Peter simply tried to talk Judas and his group away. Would you then use those same verses to prohited speaking? If you will recall, the same Jesus who told Peter not to use his sword is also the same Jesus who made a whip out of cords and drove the money changers and animal sellers out of the Temple. The no self-defense argument falls a little flat upon that fact.

call it what you wish, but i try to live my life every day asking: what would Jesus do? what does He want me to do? use carnal weapons when His Word tells me that our weapons are not carnal? you can interpret these words any way you want, i'm going to actually do my best to live by them.

Revelation 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

[Fez]

Revelation 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death

Josephine, although I respect your position, because until something happens, or you have experienced it, we are all "shaped" by our own personal history. The scripture you quote however, has a connotation not associated with self defense, but salvation. There is a difference.

I no longer carry a gun, although I own one, and I too trust in Jesus for my protection, and that of my loved ones.

Would I stand back if South for instance was being harmed in any way? No, of course not. I would use any means at my disposal to protect her, including physical force, weapons, or anything else that came to hand.

Would this be a sin? I don't think so, and even if it was, I live under grace and Jesus would know my heart in the matter. It would not be about hate, or love for the attacker, it would be about defending a loved one or myself.

[josephine tomczuk]

i understand, but if the bible tells me not to use carnal weapons, i'd rather not. of course, nobody knows what happens until they're put into certain situations, but i don't really appreciate the hyperthetical what-ifs. just because i don' tlike guns or violence, does not make me a bad mother. i'll let Jesus be the judge of that, not others. i'm allowed to say no to guns, that doesn't make me crazy or stupid. i disagree, that's all.

[Thankful 1]

(Matthew 5:39)

[Guest shiloh357]

i understand, but if the bible tells me not to use carnal weapons, i'd rather not.

The bible does not say that you cannot use carnal weapons in self defense or in defense of your family. You are misrepresenting what the Bible says.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

(2Co 10:4-5)

The context is spiritual. Paul is talking about spiritual warfare. The weapons of our warfare against Satan and other evil spiritual forces are not carnal; they are spiritual.

The text in no way prohibits the use of guns by Christians in self defense. You are wrongly applying the passage to a situation that it is not designed to address.

of course, nobody knows what happens until they're put into certain situations, but i don't really appreciate the hyperthetical what-ifs.

The what-ifs are important because it is important to be prepared, to know what you will do in certain situations and to have a plan. It is because of "what-ifs" that people buy health/life insurance or fire insurance for their home.

just because i don' tlike guns or violence, does not make me a bad mother. i'll let Jesus be the judge of that, not others. i'm allowed to say no to guns, that doesn't make me crazy or stupid. i disagree, that's all.

No one is saying you are a bad person. The problem is that your disagreement is based in a flawed handling of Scripture.

[josephine tomczuk]

i understand, but if the bible tells me not to use carnal weapons, i'd rather not.

The bible does not say that you cannot use carnal weapons in self defense or in defense of your family. You are misrepresenting what the Bible says.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

(2Co 10:4-5)

The context is spiritual. Paul is talking about spiritual warfare. The weapons of our warfare against Satan and other evil spiritual forces are not carnal; they are spiritual.

The text in no way prohibits the use of guns by Christians in self defense. You are wrongly applying the passage to a situation that it is not designed to address.

of course, nobody knows what happens until they're put into certain situations, but i don't really appreciate the hyperthetical what-ifs.

The what-ifs are important because it is important to be prepared, to know what you will do in certain situations and to have a plan. It is because of "what-ifs" that people buy health/life insurance or fire insurance for their home.

just because i don' tlike guns or violence, does not make me a bad mother. i'll let Jesus be the judge of that, not others. i'm allowed to say no to guns, that doesn't make me crazy or stupid. i disagree, that's all.

No one is saying you are a bad person. The problem is that your disagreement is based in a flawed handling of Scripture.

that is your right to assume. and i can just as easily assume the same thing about you. but instead, i'll allow for the possibility that

we are both in need of revelation - which only the Holy Spirit can give, not mere human logic. right now, i'd just rather stick to what i see plainly in the scriptures, not look for hidden codes/loop-holes to satisfy my logic or even instinct. His ways and thoughts are higher than ours for a genuine reason.

[nebula]

i understand, but if the bible tells me not to use carnal weapons, i'd rather not.

I'd rather not use carnal weapons either. Guns intimidate me (my use of, that is).

I won't condemn, though, a Christian who uses a gun to stop a criminal, though.

Nor will I condemn the man known as The Machine Gun Preacher who uses whatever means he can (including guns) to rescue children in Southern Sudan and Uganda from the LRA (Lord's Resistance Army). See here

of course, nobody knows what happens until they're put into certain situations, but i don't really appreciate the hyperthetical what-ifs.

No, nobody does know. My thoughts, though, are that I wouldn't want to live with the knowledge that I could have done something in such a situation, and I did nothing. I would rather the Lord punish me for using a violent means (even if all I had was a big stick) to stop an evil person from doing harm than for Him to punish me for not protecting a life.

[Guest shiloh357]

that is your right to assume.

I am not asuming anything. I am simiply presenting the facts and the text that you are referring to and the way you are misapplying it.

and i can just as easily assume the same thing about you.

If I am misapplying the text, show me why. Otherwise, no you cannot assume the same thing about me.

but instead, i'll allow for the possibility that

we are both in need of revelation

This is not an issue of revelation. It is an issue of proper literary analysis of the text. There is NO biblical prohibition against a Christian using guns or natural/carnal weapons. If there were, you could produce the text that says so, but obviously, you can't produce it.

which only the Holy Spirit can give, not mere human logic.

I have not presented human logic. I quoted the Scripture that references carnal weapons and presented the context. And the context is about spiritual warfare and it simply states that our weapons in terms of spirtual warfare are not carnal. In terms of spiritual warfare, our weapons are spiritual and not carnal. That is all the text says, and NO more.

It NOWBHERE states that God has prohibited the use of carnal weapons in personal defense against a human threat and I defy you to show otherwise from the Bible.

right now, i'd just rather stick to what i see plainly in the scriptures, not look for hidden codes/loop-holes to satisfy my logic or even instinct. His

I presented exactly what the Scriptures plainly state. I have not presented any hidden codes. I am working from the plain objective sense of the text and the exact wording of the text. You are trying to project your aversion to weapons on to the Bible and you cannot even properly quote the Bible in order to do that. You are subjectively assigning values to the Bible that are not there.

ways and thoughts are higher than ours for a genuine reason.

but you are using YOUR OWN reasoning and are not relying on any clear statement from the Biblical text.