Catholic Reformation, Protestant Reformation and the Theories

[yomotalking]

Hi guys! It's good to be back on Worthy.

I'm currently studying Medieval History, and I am studying the beginnings of Protestantism, and the Humanists, etc, as well as 16th Century England, and it's "Henrican" (Henry VIII's) church. As of yet, I have no opinion. I found these propositions fascinating, and wondered what you thought.

As far as I have been taught, there are several interpretations of the Reformation/s. (I'm sorry about some of the techinical spelling, please do correct me: an A Level exam depends on me spelling stuff right! )

View one:

The Catholic Church in the 16th Century was in need of reform. There were abuses, such as:

Absenteeim = bishops being away from their dioeces, and therefore not being there to attend to the spiritual needs of 'their' flock.

Pluralism, = having more than one dioces.

Nepotism= using family connection to get your way into a seat of power in the church.

Simony= bribing you way up there!

The Protestant Reformation starts. The Protestants go and challenge the beliefs of the Catholic Church. The Protestants have new converts after Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.

In response to this new wave of Protestantism, the Catholic Church does a self-assessment, and sees that there are abuses (see above list) and goes and changes them, but feels that Protestantism is a threat, so tries to reclaim people back to the Catholic Church. It sends Jesuit Misssionaries out, launches the Spanish Inquistion, the Roman Inquistion, etc. This theory suggests this was a retaliatory action.

View Two:

The Catholic Church was in need of reform. The Fransicians start in 13th Century, founded by Francis of Assissi, in attempt to create a monk Order that was more spiritual. During the 16th Century, Humanists inspire others to see that there were church abuses. So, people go and try to get rid of them. (They do, to some extent, charities are born, education improves, (including semenaries) and there's more Lay piety. (Such as the Oratory of Divine Love.) The clergy were said to be more educated and better equiped to do their job.

The Protestant Reformation starts.

The Catholic Reformation continues, as it always did.

The Protestant Reformation continues, too.

They go along, side by side, but in this theory, they are seperate and independent from each other.

View Three:

The Catholic Church was in need of reform. People within the Catholic Church try to remove abuses, but the Protestants help "nudge" them in the right direction towards reform, and getting rid of some of the church abuses.

Which one do you think is the most probable theory?

Yomo

[nebula]

Well, the problem with those theories is that it makes it sound like it was all a planned effort.

It wasn't.

People like St. Francis and Martin Luther were simply trying to bring people back to the truth of the Gospel. Francis didn't mean to start a new order, and Luther didn't mean to start a new denomination separate from "the Church."

Likewise, the Roman Catholic Church was as much a political entity as a religious one, and many of the things they did were attempts to retain their political power.

It really does get complicated.

[georgedrw81]

Well, the problem with those theories is that it makes it sound like it was all a planned effort.

It wasn't.

People like St. Francis and Martin Luther were simply trying to bring people back to the truth of the Gospel. Francis didn't mean to start a new order, and Luther didn't mean to start a new denomination separate from "the Church."

Likewise, the Roman Catholic Church was as much a political entity as a religious one, and many of the things they did were attempts to retain their political power.

It really does get complicated.

Right

[jenbe]

You know WAY more than me, Yomo. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

[Guest yod]

Which one do you think is the most probable theory?

Yomo

That Protestant churches are just varying denominations of the Catholic church. The Reformation didn't reform nearly enough.

[yomotalking]

Which one do you think is the most probable theory?

Yomo

That Protestant churches are just varying denominations of the Catholic church. The Reformation didn't reform nearly enough.

REjection of the Pope, no belief in transubstiation, no belief in purgatory, no confession to a priest.......is a varying demonination of the Catholic church? But doesn't this undermine the core beliefs of the RCC?

[Smalcald]

Every church represented on this board, every individual who does not go to church but reads their bible at home is a product of the reformation.

There was NO OTHER Christians besides the Orthodox and Roman Christians prior to the Reformation. So hate it or love it, if you are not a member of the Catholic Church you are a spiritual heir of the reformation.

There were no Southern baptists, no pentecostals, no Messianic Christians, none, the basis for those Christians to exist happened AFTER the reformation opened up the Gospel.

[mfj]

View 4

The church was being guided(reformed) since Christ formed it. I only mean to say, there were erroneous beliefs among the disciples. And after Christs ascension the Apostles had differences they had to hash out. Just a cursory inspection of church history shows strife and reform through out the years. My opinion, the Accuser charged Gd that he could claim more souls if Gd didn't supernaturally hold the church together. And what the devil meant for evil Gd used for good. The devil just multiplied his own troubles. The church has been under attack since day one.

[Guest yod]

Every church represented on this board, every individual who does not go to church but reads their bible at home is a product of the reformation.

There was NO OTHER Christians besides the Orthodox and Roman Christians prior to the Reformation. So hate it or love it, if you are not a member of the Catholic Church you are a spiritual heir of the reformation.

There were no Southern baptists, no pentecostals, no Messianic Christians, none, the basis for those Christians to exist happened AFTER the reformation opened up the Gospel.

there may not have been any organizational structures of religion, but there have always been jewish believers before and during the entire church period who were isolated and shunned by every branch of the church.

Even the modern expression of messianic jews began outside of the church, in a Hungarian synagogue with a young rabbi named Leopold Cohen who read the Tenach and began trying to figure out the Prophets.

[Smalcald]

Every church represented on this board, every individual who does not go to church but reads their bible at home is a product of the reformation.

There was NO OTHER Christians besides the Orthodox and Roman Christians prior to the Reformation. So hate it or love it, if you are not a member of the Catholic Church you are a spiritual heir of the reformation.

There were no Southern baptists, no pentecostals, no Messianic Christians, none, the basis for those Christians to exist happened AFTER the reformation opened up the Gospel.

there may not have been any organizational structures of religion, but there have always been jewish believers before and during the entire church period who were isolated and shunned by every branch of the church.

Even the modern expression of messianic jews began outside of the church, in a Hungarian synagogue with a young rabbi named Leopold Cohen who read the Tenach and began trying to figure out the Prophets.

Hi Yod,

That is very fascinating. I would love to do more reading about Jewish believers in Christ during the period 150ad-1500ad and where they existed and how they existed? Do we have records of Jewish believers in Christ and their congregations during this period of time that were not part of the Eastern or Western Churches?

I know we argue about some of this stuff, but for me this is really a fascinating thing that they did exist in any numbers at all.