Temple of God

[nebula]

Are we having a communication break down?

no, I'm just being a little ornery.

The holy place or the holy of holies for the Christian is our heart [my guess].

What do you mean by "heart"?

The organ that pumps blood, or the spirit?

And when you say "holy place or the holy of holies" are you considering both to be in the heart, or are youthinking one of those is in the heart and the other one is somewhere else?

Back when our Lord walk the earth, the holy of holies was in the temple, right! Right, so to day the question is which temple is Jesus talking?

I know this is what you were asking, and I already answered this. There are good arguments for either the physical temple of the spiritual temple.

I personally have decided that I am not going to nail myself down to either because I regard all prophecies yet to be fulfilled this way. There are so many opinions and intepretations floating around that it seems more likely more interpretations are wrong than right.

There is no temple building yet and when they build one would it be holy to God or not?

Whether the Lord considers it holy or not wasn't my point. My point was that "the Holy Place" is the name of the chamber. Jesus could have just as easily called it that because that is what it is called as much as He cold have meant the coming spiritual temple(s).

[CBE1]

It seems to me that God made things in the physical to give us an idea as to what is in the spiritual.

If this is the case, a we see a physical building call a temple, it must in some sense represents a spiritual temple.

Now even we recongnized that it is not the physical building that is important to God, but rather the people that come there to meet God that are important.

So if we are the real temple, it is not our physical body that is important to God but rather the person we are inside that is important. So if we think our heart is the Holy place, it is not our physical heart but our spiritual heart that we are talking about.

[nebula]

it is not our physical heart but our spiritual heart that we are talking about.

I know, I'm just giving E a hard time because he's spinning my brain with his circular arguments.

[CBE1]

it is not our physical heart but our spiritual heart that we are talking about.

I know, I'm just giving E a hard time because he's spinning my brain with his circular arguments.

Well, in that case.

[Seeker100]

It seems to me that God made things in the physical to give us an idea as to what is in the spiritual.

If this is the case, a we see a physical building call a temple, it must in some sense represents a spiritual temple.

Now even we recongnized that it is not the physical building that is important to God, but rather the people that come there to meet God that are important.

So if we are the real temple, it is not our physical body that is important to God but rather the person we are inside that is important. So if we think our heart is the Holy place, it is not our physical heart but our spiritual heart that we are talking about.

Good Post!

[e lansing]

What do you mean by "heart"?

spirit?

I know this is what you were asking, and I already answered this. There are good arguments for either the physical temple of the spiritual temple.

According to one end time theory, the next big event is the building of this new temple. My concern is, what if we are waiting for the wrong thing? What if the temple that Jesus is talking about is not this new temple building that we are waiting for them to build? If He meant spiritual temple, how would this apply? How could this abomination happen in a spiritual temple?

Whether the Lord considers it holy or not wasn't my point.

ya ok, but knowing this would help make since as how or why He would get so offended. If its just a building to Him, then why judgement? If its not a man made building then what is it?

My point was that "the Holy Place" is the name of the chamber. Jesus could have just as easily called it that because that is what it is called as much as He cold have meant the coming spiritual temple(s).

but he used what he used and i do not think he used the term "holy place" for lack of a better term.

If the topic is a waste of time for you, thats fine, i do not want to waste your time.

[e lansing]

It seems to me that God made things in the physical to give us an idea as to what is in the spiritual.

If this is the case, a we see a physical building call a temple, it must in some sense represents a spiritual temple.

Now even we recongnized that it is not the physical building that is important to God, but rather the people that come there to meet God that are important.

So if we are the real temple, it is not our physical body that is important to God but rather the person we are inside that is important. So if we think our heart is the Holy place, it is not our physical heart but our spiritual heart that we are talking about.

What you wrote i agree with. The point you make is not what i am getting at. In terms of this new temple in Israel, is this the one that Jesus is talking about in Matt 24? Or does He mean something else? The reason i mention holy, is in past history in the old testiment the word abomination was used in conjunction with the worshiping of other gods by his people and this resulted in the desolation of the temple and the city and ultemitly to their captivity. So understanding what is holy to God today will help me better understand if we should be looking for some new temple in Israel or something else.

[Openly Curious]

Jesus said to "watch" for the abomination that causes desolationwas referrence to Daniel 9:24

It said that this abomination would happen in the holy place.

This holy place is it man made or not?

In the future the temple will be built and this temple will be built by man as all temples or churches are built by man. The Jews will rebuild on the temple mount a temple that will have the holy of holies and the holy place with in it. This temple built by the Jews own hands will be desecrated by the anti-christ and within this temple the anti-christ will enter into the holy place and desecrate this temple by offering up a sacrifice which is the abomination in the sight of the Lord as it causes "desolation" which means something use to be on a certain site which came to ruin this was the temple during the time of Christ which that temple took the people 46 years to build and if you will remember in scripture where Jesus said, that in three days the temple would be destroyed and then will be rebuilt in three days as the veil of the would be rent from top to bottom but Jesus was speaking of his death, burial, and resurrection that would take 3 days. It was told to Jesus that it took 46 years to build the temple and you say, that you are going to tear it down and rebuild in 3 days for they laughed at what Jesus spoke about. For it is this "DESOLATION" of the temple that the Jews will rebuild on the ruined temple mount that we are to "WATCH" for it is this temple that will be "DESECRATED" by the anti-christ as he seems to openly make a great mockery of the creator of the universe as he desecrates the Holy Place. For Jerusalem has a special place in the heart of God but it would take a very long time to share this but Jerusalem was the place where he chose to put his name. Jerusalem also has a place in the future that God wants to bring about. But again this is what we are to watch for in the rebuilt temple by the Jews.

Does god live in temples that man made today?

The god" within your question should be a capital God as the little "g" is used in reference to pagan gods who are not God. I believe that the Spirit of God does live in temples or churches today even though they have been built by the hands of men. Now that does not take away from the fact in 2 Corinthians that our bodies are the temple of the Lord which is true. I believe that the presence of God does abide in temples as some say, and churches that others say, but the presence of God is everywhere when we gather together to worship in spirit and truth and hear the word of God. But I also acknowlege the fact that not all churches come together for the right motives and are not dedicated to the cause of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit has chosen not to dwell among these kind of people when they gather together to worship but only in vain do they worship God.

God has never "lived" in a Temple. And btw, ALL of the temples that have existed in the Land of Israel were "man-made." When the Bible claims that God does not live temples made by man, the point being made is that he is not like the gods of the pagans who were said to live in those temples. It was a statement made to show that the God of the Bible was far greater than any of the pagan gods. The pagans had no point of reference for an all-powerful God who was omnipresent (everywhere at once).

I do not know of any scripture reference that backs up your statement that "God has never "lived" in a Temple." For the Word depicts just the opposite for God did abide in temple made by man such as the tent of meeting the tabernacle or temple God instructed Moses to build. For God "did" live within the tent of meeting. It is recorded that the Spirit of God filled the temple even Moses himself when he came out of the temple had to put a veil over his face so the people couldn't see as the glory of God would fade from his face. Then you have the temple at Shiloh that seem to have up and down times whether they wanted to serve God or not. The sons of Eli were priest in the temple who did wickedly in the sight of God and they took from the offerings whatever they wanted and slept with the women who come to the temple, The Spirit left the temple and God judged the house of Eli as he did not discipline his sons and let the evil continue. But the Spirit of God did return to the temple at Shiloh as there heart did turn back to God though it took years. The temple of Zurubabel the Spirit of God filled that temple when it had been dedicated with his divine presence and glory. The temple of David that Solomon built had been destoyed and at the rebuilding of the temple that followed at the dedication of the temple the old people were there weeping as they "remembered" the first temple that Solomon had built in all of it's splender and the glory how God did dwell at the temple of Solomon. And as the older generation were there weeping as they had actually worshiped and experienced the greatness and glory of the former temple. The younger people who were there rejoicing at the dedication of the temple as they were rejoicing because they never had the knowledge of the former temple they were not born yet during that time so you had the older ones weeping in what they once had in the temple Solomon and you had the younger ones rejoicing because temple worship was the will of God and they would for the first time be able to experience worshipping in the temple.

You say, that all the temples that had been built in the land of Israel were "man-made" Do you really think that the Spirit of God cannot dwell in a man-made temple just because the heathen or pagans dwell in temples? Then you say, that the spirit of the pagan gods fills their temples, How could that be? when idol gods are "DEAD" they have no life whatsoever and again. How can a temple be filled with the life of a "DEAD IDOL god"that can't see, nor hear, or is able to speak? I'm reminded of Elijah and the prophets of Baal how he challenged their idol gods to see if they were true or not and the Baal worshippers lost. The prophets of baal ended up cutting themselves in flustration to the point of bleeding but their dead god did not win any of the events that Elijah put forth. But the God of Elijah showed himself "Alive to Elijah" It may have been said, that the gods of the pagans were in the temples that they had been built. But God did not want to be compared to those "man-made" temples that the pagans had built for themselves to worship their idol gods in. Temple worship was the plan in the OT and still is today for God dwells within our hearts as we worship God in Spirit and in truth. The Spirit of God as I said, dwells in temples today as our bodies are the house where the Spirit of the Lord abides within. There should never be any comparison from temple worship to pagan worship never.

God is omni-present being everywhere at once but the pagans gods can be no-where at once for they are dead.

God, is omnipresent, and so cannot be confined to a single location. He cannot be contained in a temple.

Yes, God is omni-present, You say, at the end of your statement, That God cannot be contained in a temple. What about the temple of the Lord our body the house of God? Who are we to say where God wants his Spirit to dwell at it is his Spirit he can give it and he can take it away? With that question if God can give his Spirit to a person or group of people within a certain measure (I do not know what that measure is) of the Spirit then God has confined his Spirit as God gave it to them. Then if the Lord decides he wants to withdraw from people then no longer is the portion of the Spirit confined for it is taken away.

Even though God is omnipresent and is everywhere at one time but mankind is not everywhere at the sametime. Only one needs to read the history of the Israelites how God brought them out of bondage. Then in Exodus God gave to Moses the plans to build the temple or tent of tabernacle. God dwelt in the holy of holies behind the veil in the ark of God.

For it was God who came down and tabernacled among us for he did confine hiself and yet was everywhere at once. Sure the pagans had temple worship to their idol gods who couldn't see, hear or speak. But in the temple of the Lord that he directed Moses to build. It was in that temple that the only one and true living God came to dwell among his people. A God who did see, hear and speak for he was not dead but alive.

God can abide anywhere he chooses for he lives within the hearts of the believers contained in their hearts but then he is everywhere at the same time. For our body is the temple of the Lord and even though we are the temple of the Lord he still dwells beyond us.

Right! However, when we read in the old testiment when Gods people would commit the worship of other gods this was useually the reason why God would bring judgement to His people. Why? well God is Holy and at that time the temple was holy and because it was holy, it was an abomination to God when his people would worship other gods in His temple.

Yes, I agree with you for the prophet Ezekiel confirms this in how the worship of idol gods was going on in the temple and they were warned to turn from idol worship back to the worship of God to were the temple would be cleansed.

Ezekiel 3:16-27--(the warning)

Ezekiel 8:1-18--(tells of the worship of idols going on in the temple of God, also shows that judgement was going to come because of this.)

Ezekiel 9:1-11--(vs 1--God called men to come forth with their weapons with them. vs. 2--Six men came out and had their slaughter weapons with them. Among those six men one of the men had a ink-horn by his side. vs. 2-4--And this man went in the temple at the brazen alter and the cherub went over to the threshold and God spoke to the man with the ink-horn and told him to go throughout the city of Jerusalem and to set a mark on the foreheads of those who sigh, and cry because of the abominations that was done in the midst of them. So the man went forth setting a mark on those who mourned over the abomination going on. vs. 5-6-- The Lord told the other 5 men to follow the man with the ink-horn and to smite or kill everyone that didn't have a mark on their forehead and to spare no-one who did not have the mark young or old, maids, little children, women, and the Lord told them to start at his sanctuary. And at the temple they started at the "ancient men" which was before the house--Ezekiel 8:-11-12 )

Today we are in a new covenet with God through Jesus. therefore, i ask the question, what constitutes holy to God today?

Yes, and I thank God because the NT is based on better promises (Hebrews 7:22; 8:6.) Peter told us that we are holy when he quotes (Leviticus 11:44,) which says, "Be holy, because "I" am holy"

(1 Peter 1:16) The "I" refers to God Himself. Be ye holy because God is holy. Being holy to God is to compare our holiness with the holiness of God and seperate from the wickedness in the world by not participating in it as God is our example and this is to be "holy to God". For the Lord has seperated Himself from wickedness and it is said be ye holy for I am holy just as God is set apart from sin and wickedness we also are to seperate ourselves to the work in the service of God. This is what constitutes holy to God today. For it is the blood of Christ that has set us apart from the world unto Himself and unto his divine purpose to be living sacrifices holy and acceptable to God. (Romans 12:1-3).

"holy" means set apart to God's service. Think of Moses back in (Exodus 3:5) When God told Moses to take off his sandals because where he was a standing at was "holy ground" and this was all out in a field surrounding a burning bush.

If he no longer dwells in temples made by man, why shuold we be looking for a new temple made by man if God no longer dwells in temples made by man? How could a building be holy if the people who build it have rejected Christ?

As I mentioned earlier that we are not looking for a new temple that is man-made what we are told is to "Watch" when the temple is being desecrated by the anti-christ this is what we are to be doing and we are not to be looking for a new temple that's man-made Nevertheless a temple will be rebuilt on the temple mount as it will have the holy of holiess with in it and also the holy place will be inside of it. It was in the holy place where we were made righteous a place were the people came in order to draw nigh to God behind the veil inside of the holy of holies. For it was Christ who made away for us to draw nigh to him.

Just because a people builds a temple to God it does not mean that God's Spirit dwells with that people. Even in the temple of Solomon was holy to God (seperated to God or dedicated) but when idol worship came in the temple the Lord said no-more and judgment came upon the people all except those who had the mark.

It is clear that there will be a temple built but just because it is man-made it absolutely does not mean God dwells there nor does it mean that God has no feelings toward what the people has done nor does it mean that he has no feeling toward the holy place where the blood of Jesus Christ made us the righteousness of God so we could draw near to God behind the veil. When you think of what the anti-christ is doing when he desecrates this temple in that he is sacrificing an offering in order to get people to accept his nature and thus draw near unto him instead of Christ. When this happens the Lord will no longer have longsuffering and mercy will be gone judgement will come. So it is not that the Lord is entering into the man-made temple but he will no longer let the wickedness of the anti-christ go on making a mockery of the sacrifice that was made by the blood of Jesus.

[Openly Curious]

I would love one day to go to the Temple Mount and search the grounds with my spirit for the presence of the Lord, to "feel" if it is there strongly.

I am curious what exactly do you mean when you say, "search the grounds "with my spirit" for the presence of the Lord, to "feel" "IF" it is there strongly?

It would seem to me if I were to visit the Temple Mount and knowing the history that is behind Herod's temple that once stood on that temple mount and was destoyed as the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom as Jesus said, it would be. The veil was the curtain in the temple that seperated the holy place from the holy of holies allowing us to enter directly into the presence of God today. The presence of the Lord dwelt behind the veil but The Lord removed that veil so that we could enter directly into the presence of the Lord. But Herod's temple was destroyed. The scripture speaks of this event.

Matthew 27:45-56--verse 51 in this passage says,---And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the "rocks rent;"

Mark 15:33-41--verse 38 in this passage says,---And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Today scripture says, in.....

Hebrews 4:16--Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of "grace," that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Today we can just enter into the presence of God and obtain the things we have need of and we can find grace from the Lord.

Hebrews 6:19--Which "hope" we have as an "anchor of the soul," both sure and steadfast, and which "ENTERETH into that WITHIN the VEIL;"

For me to visit the Temple Mount I could not help but be reminded of what Jesus did when the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom and it happened right on that Temple Mount and as my heart right now is full of thankfulness and praise in what the Lord did for us. Being on that temple mount to me would only make these truths come alive even more in my heart in what Jesus did through the cross. I just know without a doubt where ever I may be the Lord is strongly abiding within.

[nebula]

I am curious what exactly do you mean when you say, "search the grounds "with my spirit" for the presence of the Lord, to "feel" "IF" it is there strongly?

Have you ever felt the presence of the Lord?

I kow He is everywhere, but there are times and places where there is a much stronger sense of His presence.

If you ever encountered that, you might know what I mean. Otherwise, you probably won't.