Why Israel?

[nebula]

Or think of it this way -

How many sides do dice have?

One?

No, many (the standard is 6, but there are 3-20 sided dice).

Does focusing on one side of the dice negate the others?

You see what I am writing about here is not my view of the sum of the dice, but just another side to it - a side that has more or less been hidden or not thought much of.

Kind of like the Far side of the Moon - the side of the Moon we never see from Earth. We recognize the Moon by the side we see. But is that the sum of the Moon? No, there is another side to it.

My question is searching for what is on the other side of the Moon. And what I wrote about is something I found in that journey.

Does that make more sense?

[Guest shiloh357]

I think what Neb is saying that Jewish people are very complex. Stubbornness is actually a very common Jewish trait. I don't think Nebula was trying to say that stubbornness is the only trait when we possess. One can see that stubbornness in the life of Paul. When we read what he wrote about his sufferings in II Corinthians 11, it would definitelly take a stubborn person to continue in his mission in the face withering persecution and almost sure death.

Jewish people are also very generous, and have a very strong presence in social and humanitarian organizations. The nation of Israel is almost always one of the first if not the first nation to respond to humanitarian crises and natural disasters.

I think Neb's OP was right on target, though. I see nothing in what she is written that should be impugned.

[Botz]

Neb/Shiloh,

I have no argument with most of what was written, and I was reluctant to mention what I felt because it was an uplifting and well observed post except for the way in which it seemed that Nebula was demonstrating that G-d chose the Jewish people, beginning with Abraham, because He recognized something that merited His attention, and that is absolutely not the case....what other conclusion can I draw when reading this:-

Sure it is easy to see why the Lord chose Abraham.

or this

I saw a glimmer of what the Lord was seeing - you could say a potential for greatness He wanted to claim for His own.

The stubbornness of Israel has to some extent been turned into a humorous caricature akin to doggedness and the ability to persevere under great oppression and hardships, but in biblical terms it is not something to be proud of, and unfortunately caused G-d immense anguish.

Anything the Jewish people have obtained as a race has been instilled in them by G-d revealing Himself to them, and setting the seal of His love upon them, and cutting covenant that He will be their G-d....it was the only thing that distinguished them from the Goyim/nations, and so often they disowned and spurned the G-d who chose them and delivered them from such bondage and adversity, and preferred to copy the abominations of the idolatrous nations surrounding them.

I admire the way Israel has helped out in Haiti...and other disaster areas, and the way many Jewish people get to the top of the professional world, and the way they cherish life and are so willing to forgive such hurt and pain caused by the Moslem's, but I see that as the blessing of G-d and do not see Jewish people as in any way superior or more capable than other people

I admire Paul because he took to heart everything G-d showed him, and became a chosen vessel in the hands of His Creator...he was remarkable...but even he counted everything as dung that was not interwoven with the saving grace of G-d.

Perhaps it would have been more appropriate if I had sent a PM rather than stuck an oar in here, but I thought it was an important point and wanted to make the distinction.

[nebula]

Botz -

By looking at the "2" side of the dice and treating it as a separate entity does not mean I am negating the "3", "5", and "6" sides of the dice.

But if you have a better revelation on why "he struggles with God" is the name He chose for His people, I'm all ears.

[Fez]

Ok my simple two cents:-

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.

Gen 32:25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him.

Gen 32:26 Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

Gen 32:27 And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."

Gen 32:28 Then he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed."

Barnes says:-

When God has a new thing of a spiritual nature to bring into the experience of man, he begins with the senses. He takes man on the ground on which he finds him, and leads him through the senses to the higher things of reason, conscience, and communion with God.

Jacob, true to his character, struggles while life remains, with this new combatant. touched the socket of his thigh, so that it was wrenched out of joint. The thigh is the pillar of a man

[nebula]

I understand the story behind the naming - and that was indeed a good presentation of it.

But in Hebrew understanding, names have meaning beyond taking on the name of the ancestor.

A name defines the people.

"He struggles with God" defines the people.

Why would the Lord choose that name?

[Fez]

I understand the story behind the naming - and that was indeed a good presentation of it.

But in Hebrew understanding, names have meaning beyond taking on the name of the ancestor.

A name defines the people.

"He struggles with God" defines the people.

Why would the Lord choose that name?

I was sure you did, probably better than me.

But maybe it was because Jacob refused to give up, and even when disabled to the point that he could not stand, he would still not let go until God blessed him. There is a certain symbolism here I think, of never giving up, never letting go of God, no matter what the circumstance. Because who mightier than God can we wrestle with, and in a way (because His grace allowed it), prevail?

It's an interesting question, and I don't have the answer, but am going to look further. Thats what Worthy is about after all, to make us think!

[nebula]

Hey Fez -

Thanks for responding. And that was an awesome evaluation of Jacob's encounter with the Lord!

But I am wondering about his descendents, the people who would be called "Israel" after him.

Why would the Lord make the people, the nation, called "he struggles with God"?

[Fez]

Hey Fez -

Thanks for responding. And that was an awesome evaluation of Jacob's encounter with the Lord!

But I am wondering about his descendents, the people who would be called "Israel" after him.

Why would the Lord make the people, the nation, called "he struggles with God"?

I don't know. Yet. But I am sure going to have a bash at thinking it through And I am sure others will post with their ideas soon! In a negative way, they did struggle with God for the 40 year hike, etc, but I am sure that is not what God intended when naming the nation, giving the circumstance from which the name was given. The "he", interests me, because it implies the singular, which is strange when speaking of a nation?

[EricH]

Probably a lot of it had to do with Jacob's wrestling match with God