Why Israel?

[Fez]

Probably a lot of it had to do with Jacob's wrestling match with God

Yes I think Nebula and me both agree, but to use the name for a nation is what we are now wondering about?

[Botz]

Botz -

By looking at the "2" side of the dice and treating it as a separate entity does not mean I am negating the "3", "5", and "6" sides of the dice.

But if you have a better revelation on why "he struggles with God" is the name He chose for His people, I'm all ears.

Sorry limited time at the moment, so responding is a bit intermittent.

Neb...I think you are missing the gist of the one point I was trying to softly pull you up on.

I have not attempted to comment on the name 'Israel'...I understand what you have written, and even G-d's revelation to give you an idea of something within the Jewish soul if you like. I also see it as prophetic...and because G-d sees the end from the beginning, and perhaps in re-naming Jacob, he is also using his very nature as an endorsement of the nature of the nation that will spring from his loins.

My contention was focused on just one thing, (which later grew into two, due to extra comments)...namely that G-d's sovereign choice of Abraham and subsequently the Jewish nation was not based on any merits that either Abraham had as an individual, or that the Israelites displayed as a nation...He chose because He chose. This has nothing to do with looking at it from one side of the dice or the other, but has to do with what has been revealed about the heart of G-d...and I wanted to give a slight nudge in that direction.

Secondly some people get the idea that Jewish people, especially when they become Believer's in Yeshua, are somehow more spiritual or more capable of following the L-rd and inadvertently lend a two tier notion to being 'One in the L-rd' and this again is not evidenced by Scripture. What they have, which is of great benefit is their history and their roots, and being able to see their unique calling because of the seal of love that G-d has set upon them.

Hope that clarifies things...but it is still interesting to see how the thread has developed and what surfaces. Kindly. Botz

[nebula]

Hey, Botz -

I was thinking about what you said before, and I thought of another illustration that might clarify what is in the back of my mind that didn't come out in the surface.

Consider Peter.

Any sermon focusing on Peter would most likely mention his propensity for impulsiveness, leaping without looking, having a foot-shaped mouth, etc. This was Peter's weakness and resulted in his getting into trouble on quitea few occasions. However, such impulsiveness had great value to the Kingdom work he was called to do...if you think about it. Who else among the 12 would have been crazy enough to walk on water? Or be the first to heal a lame man out in the open at the Temple the way Jesus did? Or to be the first to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles?

In the same vein, yes, the stubborness of the Israelites/Jews has gotten them into a lot of trouble, but what happens when their stubborness is towards the things of the Lord, for doing good, etc.?

Yeah, I know it's a fine line between the Lord molding you into your calling and the Lord calling you into what you fit and have potential for - I know we've had several debates about that on the Board. I beleive there's a dual play that only the Lord can figure out how they work together.

What if the Lord meant for that stubborness to be there, just needing to be brought to His submission?

You know?

[Botz]

Neb, I think I understand what you are driving at... but whether it is possible for a national trait to be utilised beneficially I don't know ...the trait that G-d declares his people Israel have constantly displayed over the years is 'disobedience and obstinancy'...and I don't think anyone would want to lumber them with that 'badge of honour' perpetually.

Personally I'm not sure I even agree with national generalizations fixed by man and not declared by G-d....for example the almost mythical status of a Jewish person being immensely resilient, or the notion that when two Jews argue there are three opinions...IMO...the former is down to G-d staying the hand of their enemies, and the latter just a humourous observation and hyperbole. One can also place an unnecessary burden on people by tarring them with the same brush, or in a way speak things into them which are untrue.

I think that in these times since the Shoah and the rebirth of Israel, the Israelis, especially the indigenous Sabras have displayed remarkable tenacity, courage and single-mindedness...because in their hearts, the have said 'NEVER AGAIN' which is in marked contrast to the way so many of them fell victim to Nazi persecution and extermination... no longer are they a 'by-word' amongst the nations and their partial 'hardening' is 'softening'.

By the way does your Jewish friend who has been suffering know the L-rd?

[nebula]

By the way does your Jewish friend who has been suffering know the L-rd?

She does not know Yeshua, unfortunatley, but she is a devout Jew (religious-wise).