Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[OneLight]

If you read verses individually like that then yeah you'll get this idea that all one has to do is believe... but when you step back and look at the bigger picture, if that is what one believes then it starts contradicting with the rest of the Bible. But if you put it all together it makes sense!

My point exactly. Scripture does not contradict itself. Salvation is believing in Christ. After we believe, we start a process of renewal through the working of the Holy Spirit.

[eis]

So, if salvation requires baptism, then Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 have to be a lie, wouldn't you say?

No not a lie. It's just that it is incomplete on "calling on the name of the Lord" as belief only. I contend that it carries with it acts of obedience as in Paul's case above.

No, it is not incomplete. God knows exactly what He means. Unless you feel you can tell God that His word is incomplete ...

Sorry, my thought was incomplete, I should have said:

No not a lie. It's just that it is incomplete to teach that "calling on the name of the Lord" is belief only. I contend that it carries with it acts of obedience as in Paul's case above.

Edited March 24, 2010 by eis

[eis]

Well it just depends on who is decorating the tree and since we are all equal priests without agreed upon leaders or overseers or traditions, his explanation is every bit as good as yours.

Not hardly, especially not from a proper exegetical perspective. By the way, Lutherans sprinkle instead of immerse and according to his theology, YOU are not Christian by virture of not having been immersed by his church.

Baptism does not bring about spiritual regeneration.

shiloh357, you and others can say that over and over again, but there is as much evidence that one must be baptized to be saved though command, examples and other reasonable deduction as there is in belief only. Aside from that Ananias told Paul to "Arise and be baptized ....washing away your sins." Belief gets you part of the way there, obedience is the follow through.

[OneLight]

Well it just depends on who is decorating the tree and since we are all equal priests without agreed upon leaders or overseers or traditions, his explanation is every bit as good as yours.

Not hardly, especially not from a proper exegetical perspective. By the way, Lutherans sprinkle instead of immerse and according to his theology, YOU are not Christian by virture of not having been immersed by his church.

Baptism does not bring about spiritual regeneration.

shiloh357, you and others can say that over and over again, but there is as much evidence that one must be baptized to be saved though command, examples and other reasonable deduction as there is in belief only. Aside from that Ananias told Paul to "Arise and be baptized ....washing away your sins." Belief gets you part of the way there, obedience is the follow through.

There are many "ball and chains" one could wear when they choose to fall on a few verses, as many do, forcing themselves to be bound to them for they are their beliefs. Do you really think that Christ did not finish the work of salvation, but needed us to jump through a few hoops in order for His salvation to be complete? If so, then this is your burden to carry and to place a stumbling block in front of any other is a sin.

It is very clear that salvation in Christ is by faith. The scriptures that declare this is very clear. After salvation, we have to continue to be obedient. To add onto salvation is wrong, but to be clear about obedience is right.

There are those, like yourself, who claim that baptism must be done in order to be saved, or enter into His kingdom. I ask why stop there? If you are going to place a stone around someones neck, why not take the heaviest one? If you are going to add onto His works with our works, why not use Matthew 7:21

[eis]

shiloh357, you and others can say that over and over again, but there is as much evidence that one must be baptized to be saved though command, examples and other reasonable deduction as there is in belief only. Aside from that Ananias told Paul to "Arise and be baptized ....washing away your sins." Belief gets you part of the way there, obedience is the follow through.

sorry if I missed this in the thread, but you are saying that anyone that is not baptized is not saved, is that correct? Or are there some exemptions to this rule, in your opinion?

I understand the Scripture to say that one who is not a baptized believer will not be saved. Now for your guy in the fox hole one one who trips on his way to the baptistry God will decide, but I contend that the Scripture clearly indicates that baptism is needed.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well it just depends on who is decorating the tree and since we are all equal priests without agreed upon leaders or overseers or traditions, his explanation is every bit as good as yours.

Not hardly, especially not from a proper exegetical perspective. By the way, Lutherans sprinkle instead of immerse and according to his theology, YOU are not Christian by virture of not having been immersed by his church.

Baptism does not bring about spiritual regeneration.

shiloh357, you and others can say that over and over again, but there is as much evidence that one must be baptized to be saved though command, examples and other reasonable deduction as there is in belief only. Aside from that Ananias told Paul to "Arise and be baptized ....washing away your sins." Belief gets you part of the way there, obedience is the follow through.

Again, more sloppy exegesis. Ananias' statement to Paul was not doctrinal, and cannnot be used to support the cultish notion that one must be baptized to be saved.

There is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that baptism brings about spiritual regeneration; at least, you have not provided any. Provide your evidence for review, and we will go from there.

[eis]

Well it just depends on who is decorating the tree and since we are all equal priests without agreed upon leaders or overseers or traditions, his explanation is every bit as good as yours.

Not hardly, especially not from a proper exegetical perspective. By the way, Lutherans sprinkle instead of immerse and according to his theology, YOU are not Christian by virture of not having been immersed by his church.

Baptism does not bring about spiritual regeneration.

shiloh357, you and others can say that over and over again, but there is as much evidence that one must be baptized to be saved though command, examples and other reasonable deduction as there is in belief only. Aside from that Ananias told Paul to "Arise and be baptized ....washing away your sins." Belief gets you part of the way there, obedience is the follow through.

Again, more sloppy exegesis. Ananias' statement to Paul was not doctrinal, and cannnot be used to support the cultish notion that one must be baptized to be saved.

There is no evidence anywhere in the Bible that baptism brings about spiritual regeneration; at least, you have not provided any. Provide your evidence for review, and we will go from there.

Your constant denial of Scripture also proves nothing.

You see, you and others like you believe that baptism is being promoted as a "work" that one does to be saved.

I suspect even you tell someone to "do" something to come into the saving grace of Jesus.

I understand baptism to be a submissive act, not what one does, but has done to them since one cannot baptize himself.

You would take away from the Scripture and throw out baptism all together.

If you do a word search "shall be saved", "will be saved" you will find Jesus saying He who endures to the end shall be saved. I could very well say based on that all that I have to do is endure to the end to be saved. Much like you do with believing and being saved. But we both know that there is much more to DO to be saved than endure.

You are correct when you say that one is not saved by baptism in the way that you understand it as a work. If the Lord says go, I say I will and I don't, I am not justified. Remember that story?

Sadly, your "exegesis" is the sloppy and erroneous one.

[Guest shiloh357]

Your constant denial of Scripture also proves nothing.

I have not denied any Scripture. I have denied your handling of it.

You see, you and others like you believe that baptism is being promoted as a "work" that one does to be saved.

Let's assume baptism is not a work. Nowhere in the Bible does baptism offer any redemptive benefits. Baptism is never connected with redemption of man from sin. Redemption was finished on the cross and baptism cannot offer anything that was not already accomplished on the cross. To add baptism as a requirement for salvation is to preach a false gospel.

I suspect even you tell someone to "do" something to come into the saving grace of Jesus.

Doing something and "work" are not the same thing.

I understand baptism to be a submissive act, not what one does, but has done to them since one cannot baptize himself.

It is act of obedience.

You would take away from the Scripture and throw out baptism all together.

No, I promote baptism and feel it is a necessary act of obedience.

If you do a word search "shall be saved", "will be saved" you will find Jesus saying He who endures to the end shall be saved.

Yes but Jesus was talking about being delivered out of the tribulation. He was not saying that one must work in order to make it to heaven. You need to pay better attention to context.

I could very well say based on that all that I have to do is endure to the end to be saved.

You could say that, but you would be wrong based on your faulty handling of that statement by Jesus. If you can earn your salvation by "enduring" then you don't need Jesus and you would not be a Christian.

Much like you do with believing and being saved. But we both know that there is much more to DO to be saved than endure.

I don't have to endure anything to be saved. Jesus did all of the work as far as making salvation available. My works are not motivated from a need to "endure" in order stay saved. My works are motivated out of loving gratitude for what Jesus paid for with his blood and His very life. My works are not works of endurance, but are natural outgrowth of who I am in Christ, as well as fruit of His empowerment by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Your can "endure" all you want, but your good works, however grandiose they may appear in your eyes are insufficient to procure, much less maintain your salvation. You are not good enough to keep yourself saved. Your best works on your best day are still stained with sin. You are trying in futility to earn or deserve salvation, and in doing so, as Paul would say, you have fallen from grace.

You are correct when you say that one is not saved by baptism in the way that you understand it as a work. If the Lord says go, I say I will and I don't, I am not justified. Remember that story?

One is not saved by baptism regardless of whether one sees it as a work or not. Whether it is a work or not is for the most part, irrelevant. No actual doctrinal treatment of baptism in the Bible ever presents baptism as an addtional co-redmeptive agent with Christ's finished work on the cross.

Sadly, your "exegesis" is the sloppy and erroneous one.

Sorry, but that is not evident from your beggardly handling of Scripture.

[Littlelambseativy]

eis

How do you deal with these verses

Matthew 3:11 (New King James Version)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.[a]

John 1:33 (New King James Version)

33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me,

[eis]

eis

How do you deal with these verses

Matthew 3:11 (New King James Version)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.[a]

John 1:33 (New King James Version)

33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me,