Who is my "brother" in Christ?

[eis]

Your constant denial of Scripture also proves nothing.

I have not denied any Scripture. I have denied your handling of it.

You see, you and others like you believe that baptism is being promoted as a "work" that one does to be saved.

Let's assume baptism is not a work. Nowhere in the Bible does baptism offer any redemptive benefits. Baptism is never connected with redemption of man from sin. Redemption was finished on the cross and baptism cannot offer anything that was not already accomplished on the cross. To add baptism as a requirement for salvation is to preach a false gospel.

Then I guess you ignore Acts 2:38

Acts 2:37-39

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

KJV

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard (this,) they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

38 And Peter (said) unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

ASV

Acts 2:37-39

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off

[OneLight]

I feel that the totality of the Word indicates that baptism is necessary and that one is not saved by grace until that part of their faith is acted upon.

That completely eliminates grace. Gods grace is given freely, not after we do 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Then it would be a reward.

[eis]

I feel that the totality of the Word indicates that baptism is necessary and that one is not saved by grace until that part of their faith is acted upon.

That completely eliminates grace. Gods grace is given freely, not after we do 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Then it would be a reward.

Your opinion about eliminating grace - I'll respectfully disagree.

Edited March 24, 2010 by eis

[Littlelambseativy]

WOw- I come from a Calvanist / Presbyterian background and I tho' I accept Calvin's teaching. I prefer to believe what the Bible says.

When it comes to baptism we should agree to disagree. That is something that I do not recall Jesus specifically saying - WATER baptism. When we accept Jesus we are baptized into His death and resurrection through the

HOLY SPIRIT. Jesus said He would send the Comforter and HE would baptize us.

Some churches do the baptism different ways, sprinkling, pouring, or immersion. I believe that HAVING to be baptized (immersed) is following what the Old Covenant. Jewish people HAD to be baptized as a RITUAL CLEANSING.

When Christ said on the cross,'It is finished", that included ALL.

All that is NOW required of us is to accept Jesus as our ONE AND ONLY sacrifice and by the HOLY SPIRIT be baptized into Christ's death and resurrection.

He said, 'DONE!' and I take HIM at HIS WORD on that .

Did not Jesus say that - all who do My Father's will are my brother and sister?

[eis]

also, since you didnt answer, I will ask again, were the 12 disciples baptized in water?

We are not told. It would fit that they did. That is no more an assumption than that there may have been a driver in the Ethopian eunuch's chariot or that there were babies in the Philipian jailer's household.

You never answered my question: Is a Catholic your brother? How about a Jehovah's Witness - they too believe in Jesus but disbelieve hell.

[eis]

also, since you didnt answer, I will ask again, were the 12 disciples baptized in water?

We are not told. It would fit that they did. That is no more an assumption than that there may have been a driver in the Ethopian eunuch's chariot or that there were babies in the Philipian jailer's household.

You never answered my question: Is a Catholic your brother? How about a Jehovah's Witness - they too believe in Jesus but disbelieve hell.

would it fit that they were before or after the death of Jesus?

as for the Ethiopian eunuch, have you ever tried to drive a chariot while reading?

Is a Catholic my brother , if they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, then yep.

As for a Jehovah's Witness, that is not as clear cut, but I would not say that accepting the idea of Hell is a requirement for salvation, so that alone would not keep them from being my brother.

When was Cornelius saved? When the Holy Spirit came upon him or when he was baptized?

I have ridden horses and have read. I have driven a car @ 50+ miles an hour and have read. Just because the eunuch was in a chariot doesn't mean that the horse was running. If you know anything at all about horses, they will walk, trot or gallop along a path without much direction from the rider. Actually a horse will hold the road better than a BMW at the same speed without input from the rider.

As for Cornelius, he was saved after his baptism. If not why was he ordered to be baptized?

(Acts 10:48

48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

NASB)

It wasn't suggested, it was ordered. The Holy Spirit had fallen upon them and they needed baptism even though the baptism of the Spirit had already occurred. Why? There is no other place in the NT where this is played out.

As a matter of fact Philip had baptized in Samaria some time earlier and when the apostles found that the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon those in Samaria, they sent Peter and John to lay on the hands that they too might receive the Holy Spirit. If baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the point of faith, something didn't go right. This too is a one of a kind unique happening that has many questions surrounding it.

In the case of Cornelius the "seal" of the Holy Spirit came before baptism in water. I think it was to convince Peter that the other sheep were right in front of him - Gentiles.

These type of happenings have not been demonstrated in this way or in Samaria in any other occasion unless you have an example that I cannot recall.

[eis]

As for Cornelius, he was saved after his baptism. If not why was he ordered to be baptized?

(Acts 10:48

48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

NASB)

It wasn't suggested, it was ordered. The Holy Spirit had fallen upon them and they needed baptism even though the baptism of the Spirit had already occurred. Why? There is no other place in the NT where this is played out.

As a matter of fact Philip had baptized in Samaria some time earlier and when the apostles found that the Holy Spirit had not fallen upon those in Samaria, they sent Peter and John to lay on the hands that they too might receive the Holy Spirit. If baptism of the Holy Spirit happens at the point of faith, something didn't go right. This too is a one of a kind unique happening that has many questions surrounding it.

In the case of Cornelius the "seal" of the Holy Spirit came before baptism in water. I think it was to convince Peter that the other sheep were right in front of him - Gentiles.

These type of happenings have not been demonstrated in this way or in Samaria in any other occasion unless you have an example that I cannot recall.

so then, the Holy Spirit comes upon us prior to our salvation, is that what you are saying?

No, it came on Cornelius before.

[nebula]

I have driven a car @ 50+ miles an hour and have read.

You were reading a book while driving your car???!!!

[Smalcald]

Well it just depends on who is decorating the tree and since we are all equal priests without agreed upon leaders or overseers or traditions, his explanation is every bit as good as yours.

Not hardly, especially not from a proper exegetical perspective. By the way, Lutherans sprinkle instead of immerse and according to his theology, YOU are not Christian by virture of not having been immersed by his church.

Baptism does not bring about spiritual regeneration.

Who is to say what is proper?

I mean we have a clear statement in Mark about Baptism it says believes AND is Baptized it also says though that only unbelief condemns.

Belief and baptism go together but that does not mean that baptism is an empty symbol, indeed baptism is a means of grace something that is sacred and true and in which our sins are washed away.

I know you don't believe that, but many many Christians have who have just as much if not more "proper exegis" experience do . When scripture is clear and says things your little group don't like you just fall back on this whole proper exegistical argument. That is fine, who knows maybe your little group in your little corner of the the world is correct? If not I guess you could just find another of the 10000 or so groups that line up with your beliefs, makes sense to me. But by your own theology you have no authority to claim different than what the bible says, and that says you must be baptized and that baptism washes away sins.

[nebula]

so then, the Holy Spirit comes upon us prior to our salvation, is that what you are saying?

No, it came on Cornelius before.

You're calling the Holy Spirit an "it"?