"Baptism doth now save you" and is not a work!

[eis]

Grace to you,

Dave,

Respectfully and I do mean respectfully. I can't say I disagree with most of the Worthy Statement.

So what to do? Deny what I think Scripture teaches & accept your teaching? Impose self banishment so everyone can pat themselves on the back that there is no one offering a different view point? Or, does someone else put me on the banned list so that you don't have to?

How about locking all my threads? Maybe that would be a good thing to do.

Then we have a huge problem because that Statement was arrived at and agreed to by a panel of Moderators and Watchmen all of whom come from completely different regions of this Nation, Nations entirely, and Doctrinal backgrounds.

It is Orthodox Christianity defined. It is the focus of our Mission and Ministry.

It is the Gospel as we have received it

If I disagreed with a Statement of Faith of a Ministry I wouldn't post there or agree to operate within the confines of it's Authority according to the Word.

What parts do you disagree with besides Justification by Faith and why?

You see, Worthy is about more than Doctrine. It's about those things which bring us together in the Body. Those things that will cause us to cling to the Lord and not each other.

Peace,

Dave

Okay, I am at fault. I did not READ the "Statement of Faith". I came because a Google search produced a hit regarding the Church of Christ being a cult. I stepped in to defend that and stayed. Why? Two reasons, I like the discussion and IMHO the most important thing for one to know is what must I do to be saved. If we miss that, everything else we talk about is for naught.

This makes me feel like I walked into the ladies bathroom by mistake!

So, I will leave you in peace. Enjoy your forum.

Oh, I like the idea of what binds, not what divides.

eis,

Here's the problem though.

Othodox Christianity states that we must accept Salvation by Faith, that it is a Free Gift. Even Baptism is accepted by Faith.

The problem comes in when you begin to Judge anothers Salvation by adding to the Doctrine of Justification by Faith.

Paul say's this;

Ac

[eis]

As I recall the Lord went about baptizing, not He but his disciples were doing the baptism, yet he gave the command to baptize.

The Lord baptized . . . no wait, that wasn't Him doing it!

Question: were the people baptized by Jesus' disciples saved under the New Covenant when they were baptized then - before Jesus died and rose again?

Nebula, it's so uncharacteristic for you, of all people that I have met here, to mock. Here it is straight from John:

John 4: When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

3 He left Judea, and departed again into Galilee.

NASB

I'm not mocking!

I am pointing out how your argument comes across.

The scripture states that the Pharisees heard Jesus was baptizing and making disciples. But then it is clarified that Jesus actually was not baptizing.

You stated: "the Lord went about baptizing, not He but his disciples were doing the baptism."

Which is not what the Scripture declares. You said the Lord went about baptizing. The Scripture never states Jesus went about baptizing.

In other words, your statement twists the Scripture.

Don't you see?

I need to close this loop.

Yes, I see. I should have posted the Scripture. None the less, would you not think that the Lord approved of the practice if he was there and His disciples were doing it? Just like your Mama used to say, "if something is going on and you don't stop it then you are a part of it"? Well, my folks said such.

Anyway, I hope I can go now and leave you in peace.

[Matthitjah]

Here's a thread for you to read;

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Dange...009#entry128009

It's an oldie but goody.

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

eis,

Here's the problem with your perspective.

In each case that you have proffered. It is never be Baptized and then believe. It is believe, first, then be Baptized. It isn't the action of the water that brings the cleansing and the remission of the sins.

If you're not ICOC why are you arguing their Doctrine?

Peace,

Dave

[Floatingaxe]

The bottom line:

The Word of God doesn't call sinners to be baptized! Only Christians are commanded to be baptized. Baptism is for the one who already believes and is saved by the blood of the Lamb!

Hallelujah.

[OneLight]

The difference is that I understand belief and faith to be "active". If one believes or has faith he will be saved because he will respond accordingly. You and others on this board believe that belief and faith are the point of salvation. Peter while filled with the Holy Spirit said :

Acts 2:38-39

Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB

Take that and a few other Scriptures out of the Word and I'll yield to your line of teaching.

Just so you understand, that "for" is eis meaning for or unto not because of. It is the same eis used in:

Matthew 26:28-29

28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

NASB

It is not because of forgiveness of sins. If so Jesus blood was poured out because sins were already forgiven.

Can we just neglect Acts 2:38 and the other commands/examples in the Scriptures that don't just promote faith only?

As one of the "others" you may be including, I have to address your statement about what you believe we are saying.

First, faith without works is dead. This rightfully means that if you are truly saved by faith, you will continue in Him where your faith is an action in every way possible, according to His will in a persons life. If you believe that we who accept salvation by faith alone do not put faith into action, your belief could be no further from the truth. If this is what you think of us, I can say that you do not fully understand us at all.

Again you bring in the verses of Acts 2:38-39. I again will place that side by side with Acts 10:24-48. How is it that those in the household of Cornelius received first the gift of the Holy Spirit, then were baptized? Since scripture does not contradict itself, could it be that Peter himself spoke this in a certain sequence even though God does not work in this sequence? If what happened in Acts 2 means that this is how it has to happen always, then Acts 10 has to be false, which we know is not the case; therefore, the understanding is in error. Why would Peter contradict himself?

Acts 10:44-48

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered,

[eis]

The difference is that I understand belief and faith to be "active". If one believes or has faith he will be saved because he will respond accordingly. You and others on this board believe that belief and faith are the point of salvation. Peter while filled with the Holy Spirit said :

Acts 2:38-39

Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB

Take that and a few other Scriptures out of the Word and I'll yield to your line of teaching.

Just so you understand, that "for" is eis meaning for or unto not because of. It is the same eis used in:

Matthew 26:28-29

28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

NASB

It is not because of forgiveness of sins. If so Jesus blood was poured out because sins were already forgiven.

Can we just neglect Acts 2:38 and the other commands/examples in the Scriptures that don't just promote faith only?

As one of the "others" you may be including, I have to address your statement about what you believe we are saying.

First, faith without works is dead. This rightfully means that if you are truly saved by faith, you will continue in Him where your faith is an action in every way possible, according to His will in a persons life. If you believe that we who accept salvation by faith alone do not put faith into action, your belief could be no further from the truth. If this is what you think of us, I can say that you do not fully understand us at all.

Again you bring in the verses of Acts 2:38-39. I again will place that side by side with Acts 10:24-48. How is it that those in the household of Cornelius received first the gift of the Holy Spirit, then were baptized? Since scripture does not contradict itself, could it be that Peter himself spoke this in a certain sequence even though God does not work in this sequence? If what happened in Acts 2 means that this is how it has to happen always, then Acts 10 has to be false, which we know is not the case; therefore, the understanding is in error. Why would Peter contradict himself?

Acts 10:44-48

The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered,

[eis]

The bottom line:

The Word of God doesn't call sinners to be baptized! Only Christians are commanded to be baptized. Baptism is for the one who already believes and is saved by the blood of the Lamb!

Hallelujah.

Wrong! Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, to clothe oneself with Christ and to appeal to God for a good conscience.

1 Peter 3:21-22

21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you

Edited April 21, 2010 by eis

[eis]

eis,

Here's the problem with your perspective.

In each case that you have proffered. It is never be Baptized and then believe. It is believe, first, then be Baptized. It isn't the action of the water that brings the cleansing and the remission of the sins.

If you're not ICOC why are you arguing their Doctrine?

Peace,

Dave

Dave,

Why is it a problem with my perspective? Baptism is for believers. I agree that the action of the water isn't the cleansing, its what is behind it, the Lord's command.

Not all who believe one must be baptized to be saved are ICOC. You are making a false assumption. I wasn't even sure who they were till yod accused me of such, then after reading the link he provided, I know well who they are. They are commonly known as the Boston Movement in the Churches of Christ. Yes, they believe the same about baptism, but I am not of their movement. Yes, I worship at a church of Christ.

[nebula]

Tell me where Cornelius was said to be saved just because the Holy Spirit fell upon Him and his household?

Are you saying the Holy Spirit fell unsaved people?