Predestination?

[billiejean]

So...does God make people do things or does He just know what they're going to do ahead of time?

[Guest]

Jesus Christ

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Loves

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

You

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

[HitmanR2]

The purpose was to show the verses did not apply to the eternal fate of individuals with God.

And it did so how?

Jacob who was a liar, and a deceiver. Yet, he was chosen by God to carry the promise of God to Abraham, not because of what he did, but in spite of what he did. It was God's choice!

Esau who would give up the rights of his birthline just to meet his momentary physical need, would serve as the example of "lust" to all. Yet he did nothing any worse than did his brother. And this was foretold, before they were born. It was God's choice.

And in this instance it not only affected the eternal fate of individuals, it affected the eternal fate of nations!

However, I would not take this instance and base a doctrine on this one event.

Edited June 14, 2010 by HitmanR2

[BlindSeeker]

The purpose was to show the verses did not apply to the eternal fate of individuals with God.

If we were to accept your view, we would have to conclude that scripture is not innerant. To accept your view would mean that God stated something would occur in a certain way and that the prophecy failed to come true. That is nonsence. The Bible has already told us how things will end. We are told that there will be a tribulation period, followed by the millenial reign and a new heavens and a new earth. If mankind truly has free will, then we could change our course and never have a tribulation period. The Jewish people could have a revival and accept Christ in mass numbers and avoid being deceived by the anti-Christ. The only problem with that is it would make God's Word out to be a lie.

If we really have free will, then Esau could have gotten his birthright and blessing, Pharoah could have let the children of Israel go without a fight, and Moses could have been content to remain the son of Pharoah's daughter. If we really have free will, then Judas Iscariot could have remained loyal to Jesus and Peter didn't have to deny Christ 3 times, even though he was told he would do just that. Then you have the example of the Apostle Paul. There were many Pharisees at the time that were just as zealous as he was in standing up against Christianity, but the only one God chose to reveal himself to was Paul. He was God's chosen vessel. Why not Gamileo or some of the other religious leaders? Why Paul? It was God's choice.

Then there is the matter of where we are born. Some are born in places where nobody has heard of Jesus and they are never given the opportunity to accept him, and then there are those who are born into Christian households, to born again parents, completely according to the will of God.

The purpose was to show the verses did not apply to the eternal fate of individuals with God.

And it did so how?

Jacob who was a liar, and a deceiver. Yet, he was chosen by God to carry the promise of God to Abraham, not because of what he did, but in spite of what he did. It was God's choice!

Esau who would give up the rights of his birthline just to meet his momentary physical need, would serve as the example of "lust" to all. Yet he did nothing any worse than did his brother. And this was foretold, before they were born. It was God's choice.

And in this instance it not only affected the eternal fate of individuals, it affected the eternal fate of nations!

However, I would not take this instance and base a doctrine on this one event.

So . . . . you both are asserting that Romans 9:11-13 are dealing with the eternal outcome of Jacob and Esau?

[BlindSeeker]

So . . . . you both are asserting that Romans 9:11-13 are dealing with the eternal outcome of Jacob and Esau?

I am. I will let HitmanR2 speak for himself, but I agree 100 percent with his comment that it was dealing with the fate of nations as well as that of the individuals. Your comment that this passage somehow shows that it did not apply to the eternal fate of individuals with God makes no sense at all. If Jacob and Esau really had the ability to move away from the prophetic message, then it was possible that God's Word would turn out to be a lie.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Then please show me the fulfillment of Esau becoming Jacob's servant

[BlindSeeker]

Under the law of Moses, it was traditional that the elder son became head of the family and got the birthright and blessing. That meant that his brothers were under him in status. In the case of Jacob and Esau, Jacob was able to steal the birthright and blessing from his brother Esau, meaning that Esau was subserviant to him. Esau struck out on his own, and was able to accumulate a certain amount of wealth, but within the family structure, his brother was the head of Esau.

Now, let's look at your question. You are claiming that the scripture was never fulfilled, meaning that you believe that God lied. The prophecy was not conditional. It didn't say that under certain circumstances, it may not come to pass. Please justify your position?

What question?

What claim did I make where?

How do you know what I believe?

Please justify your remarks . . . and maybe I'll share my thoughts with you. Certainly I don't have to "justify" anything to you.

[Guest]

Predestination?

Yes!

Israel's Salvation!

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25-29

Kinda Humbling Huh

[enoob57]

That people are unconditionally free cannot be demonstrated Biblically. In fact the opposite is stated. Jesus said that people will know the truth, and the truth will make them free. This implies that a person without the truth is not free and is conditioned by that lack of truth. Since the logical condition that required Open Theist to adjust their view of God does not exist in reality (unconditional human freedom), even the logical wrestlings that created Open Theism fall apart.

EricH do believe this to be true

Rom 11:33-36

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has become His counselor?"

35 'Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?"

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

NKJV

If in fact this is true -will we be able to say God is this or God is that or will it be God has revealed this of Himself and then God has revealed this and I cannot resolve the two ways as oneness requires in my.... so as to continue.... It seems for me that I must wait here and search for that which will allow me to advance in the truth of God yet knowing it will have to be God who will allow furtherance. How can any of us who have been created approach the Scripture above and not know to wait? Pray, search, pray and deliver to Him- that as we think there is no greater pursuit as to increase in the knowledge of who Our Lord Is and our actions shall be embedded in His Word without end! Love Steven

[Guest]

God's Choice?

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad

[EricH]

That people are unconditionally free cannot be demonstrated Biblically. In fact the opposite is stated. Jesus said that people will know the truth, and the truth will make them free. This implies that a person without the truth is not free and is conditioned by that lack of truth. Since the logical condition that required Open Theist to adjust their view of God does not exist in reality (unconditional human freedom), even the logical wrestlings that created Open Theism fall apart.

EricH do believe this to be true

Rom 11:33-36

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?

Or who has become His counselor?"

35 'Or who has first given to Him

And it shall be repaid to him?"

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

NKJV

If in fact this is true -will we be able to say God is this or God is that or will it be God has revealed this of Himself and then God has revealed this and I cannot resolve the two ways as oneness requires in my.... so as to continue.... It seems for me that I must wait here and search for that which will allow me to advance in the truth of God yet knowing it will have to be God who will allow furtherance. How can any of us who have been created approach the Scripture above and not know to wait? Pray, search, pray and deliver to Him- that as we think there is no greater pursuit as to increase in the knowledge of who Our Lord Is and our actions shall be embedded in His Word without end! Love Steven

Obviously I believe it, but I don't agree with what you perceive to be the implications of this passage. Just because we cannot comprehend God fully, does not mean we cannot know anything about Him or reality. The implication you seem to be making is that we can't know anything.