Seven year tribulation . . .

[BlindSeeker]

There are, I will show you them later. I did let you know that I had posted these answers on a different thread called Temple of God. Page 8 of 28 post 74.

For everyone's benefit, this is e lansing's post in reference -

Parker, how do you know for sure that the rapture will happen before the last 7yrs? Scripture need to interpret scripture. All theories need to back up with scripture. For Example: Daniel 9:24-27 It talks of an amount of time given to the Jewish people. 70 weeks. Now for the sake of time i will just give you this out line as short as possible. How many days are in a week? right, 7 days in a week. 7 days times 70 weeks comes out to 490. 490 day do not add up to anything so it must mean 490 years. It says in Dan 9:25 this time of 490 years will start when the decree is given to rebuild the temple. This happen in 444bc. Confirmed in Nehemiah 2:8. In verse 25 of Dan 9 it gives another set of numbers. 69 weeks plus one week. 69 times 7 is 434. one week times 7 is 49 add them together we get 483 yrs. We are 7 years short of 70 weeks. A time period was given for the Jewish nation of 490 years and it started 444bc when the decree was given to rebuild the temple. so what stop the clock? In Daniel 9:26 is says until the time of massiah will be cut off. When Jesus died on the cross it was 483 years later to the day. Just like it was prophecied. We are in a time gap, why? In Dan 9:26 it referrs to a time of wars, this is speaking of Israel being in a time of wars. The next thing to happen and what most teacher are waiting for is this new temple. Why? Because when this new temple starts to be built it will be the beginning of the last seven years. How do know that this temple has not been built, the 490 years has not been complete yet. Because it stop at the death of Jesus. There is more but for the sake of time i will end this here.

The only thing that even looks like a rapture is at Matthew 24:31 It looks like the raptures happens after this new temple is built and the antichrist commits the abomination of desolation.

Will you provide your position with scripture so we can see a time line?

[BlindSeeker]

E lansing,

I did respond to your pm and let you know that I did read your post. I just figured I would post it here for you since you were wondering how to cut and paste it.

However, I do believe that the common interpretation to which you and many hold is an inaccurate one. I can but only submit my views for your prayerful consideration, which will be in my next post.

Peace.

.

[BlindSeeker]

Since it is asserted by those who accept the 7 year tribulation period that its scriptural foundation is seventieth week of Daniel in 9:27, I will address the passage of concern submitting my position and understanding thereof.

Well let me start with the beginning of the chapter -

(Dan 9:1) In the first year of Darius . . . of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans (2) . . . I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.

This is one of my favorite passages (but by no means the favorite), because Daniel clearly states he understood that the duration of the Jewish Babylonian captivity was about over because of the book of Jeremiah the prophet (Jer 25:12; 29:10). He had a clear understanding that the 70 years was about to conclude and therefore he "set" his "face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes" grace and mercy for the sins of Israel that they may find God's favor to be restored.

Daniel earnestly sought with every means of petitioning God's mercies with "prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes." What is amazing to me is Daniel's faith and how it is revealed in his prayer to God . . .

Dan 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets.

11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed Thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey Thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against Him.

12 And He hath confirmed his words, which He spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth.

There are two parts there for God's people to embrace . . . Daniel certainly did . . .

First, God proved the certainty of His words by judging Israel according to His law as written by Moses. Second, having witnessed the certainty of God's word . . . Daniel reminds God of the purpose of judgment," that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand Thy truth."

18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

Daniel's faith was pleasing unto God and because of his faith (which came by his hearing, and that hearing the word of the Lord through Jeremiah's writings), Daniel humbly sought to further understand the future events relating to the Jewish people and their fate. Therefore God sent Gabriel to reveal unto Daniel the future events which would unfold . . .

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

To me it seems evident that the angel was there to give Daniel a clear understanding of this vision. Yes, there are other visions which Daniel had which when he sought understanding and was told, "Go thy way, Daniel. For the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." But not here. Here the angel does explain certain things to Daniel, things specifically concerning the Jewish nation and it's capital, the temple and the Messiah. In the next verse, 24, the angel clarifies what Daniel's vision is all about . . . and the duration of time to be given to it.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The first thing the angel Gabriel mentions is the time, "Seventy weeks are determined . . ." These "seventy weeks" represent a total duration of 490 years. The must difficult part of this vision deals with determining the exact time from which the time frame starts . . . and there are multiple views upon that point. I will submit my perspective a little later to you.

Daniel was praying in regards to when the 70 years of Babylonian captivity was to be finished when the angel comes to tell him about when another captivity will be over as well, the captivity of sin. Gabriel shows him "seventy weeks determined" relative to this captivity of sin, it's solution and Redeemer, Messiah the Prince. This 70 weeks, representing a total of 490 years is said to begin with the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Understand that each week here represents a 7 year period based upon the commandment to give the land a Sabbath every 7th year.

Lev 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a Sabbath unto the LORD.

3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;

4 But in the seventh year shall be a Sabbath of rest unto the land, a Sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

8 And thou shalt number seven Sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven Sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.

This understanding of a week representing a 7 year period is recognized by most commentators.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven

[7]

weeks, and threescore and two

[62]

weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The 490 years appears to be divided into three segments of time, two of which are mention there in verse 25. The first is a 7 week period representing a period of 49 years. During these 49 years the " the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times" in Jerusalem. The second is a 62 week period representing a period of 454 years which concludes with the coming of "Messiah the Prince."The total time here is 483 years.

While it may be difficult for men to agree on when the commencement of these periods begin, "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem," the angel Gabriel tells what event concludes at their end, "unto the Messiah the Prince." This clearly means that the coming of the Messiah would be 483 years after the commandment was issued.

I think Jesus gives us the best indication of the time's conclusion -

Mark 1;14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Consider also these other verse by the Apostle Paul -

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them

[the Jews]

that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him

There were those who knew the meaning and purpose of these verses in Daniel and were therefore in anticipation of their fulfillment during the days of Jesus birth . . .

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of Him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Certainly the scriptural justification for these people to be looking for the redemption of Israel in their days was because they, just like Daniel who "understood by the books," also understood the time in which they were privileged to live because of the book of Daniel and his vision concerning the 70 weeks. They knew the 484 years till the coming of Messiah was not far off and were eagerly looking for Him.

Now, in Daniel 9:24 there are six events mentioned which would be the consequences of the incarnation of our Lord -

1. To finish (bring restraint to) the transgression. This was placed in effect by the preaching of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation, and pouring out of the Holy Ghost among men.

2. To make an end of sins <chatta

[BlindSeeker]

Further more, another reason why I believe that Daniel 9 :27 "in the midst of the week" is referring to Jesus causing "the sacrifice and oblations to cease" is because Jesus also died in the midst/middle of the week, on a Wednesday.

For clarification of that please see my Trip to the Tomb thread.

(excerpt from thread)

. . . in Mark's account we see that Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where and how the body of Jesus was buried (Mark 5:47). Then, "when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome" purchased sweet spices that when they came to the tomb they might anoint the body of Jesus for a proper burial because His body was prepared and buried in haste "before" sunset prior to a High Sabbath. This is a point that most fail to discern, that the week of Jesus' crucifixion there were actually two Sabbaths. This "Sabbath" mentioned by Mark is not the seventh day weekly Sabbath, or Saturday, mention earlier in Matthew's account. This "Sabbath" was day one of seven consecutive days of observance of the Feast of the Unleaven Bread, a "high holy day" and was therefore observed as a Sabbath since no servile work was to be done, see John 19:31.

. . . that Passover was on a Wednesday, which would have (regardless of our assumption) been the fourteenth day of the first month, (Lev 23:2). Then the Fifteenth day would have been Thursday, day one the Feast of the Unleaven Bread, declared by God to be a holy convocation and a High Sabbath. Therefore after the fifteenth day "was past" Friday came, they went out and "bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him" (Mark 16:1) and then, "prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the [fourth] commandment," (Luke 23:56).

Peace

.

[mizzdy]

Blindseeker,

Have you considered the possiblity that there is also dual fulfillment to some prophecies? Not debating just asking some questions. If its the Messiah that gets cut off and I can see where we see this here, but then we see its not a new covenant then is it? but a renewed one giving rise to all kinds of debates since most believe Yeshua set up some kind of new something. As for a full seven years of tribulation I don't see it just a set of 'weeks' and within those we come to a set of time called by most the great tribulation, unless you see the time after Yeshuas death those three and half years?

[lekh l'kha]

Blindseeker,

Have you considered the possiblity that there is also dual fulfillment to some prophecies? Not debating just asking some questions.

"That which has been is that which shall be; and that which has been done is that which shall be done; and there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecc 1:9)

And in all the time that Noah was building the ark, he did not know when the flood would come - until God told him to get into the ark "For in seven more days I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights. And I will destroy from off the face of the earth every living thing that I have made." (Gen 7:4 and 1-4).

Noah only went into the ark the same day the floodwaters came (Gen.7:13 and 10-13). Why did he only enter the ark seven days after God told him to enter the ark? It's because God told him on which day the flood would come - seven days before it came.

Any Jew in Jesus' day would have understood that "the day or the hour that no man knoweth" (Mat.25:13; Mat.24:36) refers to a 48-hour period only, which begins at sunset in Jerusalem, on the evening which begins Yom T'ruah (or Rosh Hashanah) - the blowing of the trumpets. Never mind, God will reveal it to His people when the time comes for Him to reveal it to them, just as as He revelaed it to Noah when the time came.

But many will not believe because they can only believe the tradition of men. or man's traditional interpretation of God's Word.

The first thing the angel Gabriel mentions is the time, "Seventy weeks are determined . . ." These "seventy weeks" represent a total duration of 490 years. The must difficult part of this vision deals with determining the exact time from which the time frame starts . . . and there are multiple views upon that point. I will submit my perspective a little later to you.

The 490 years appears to be divided into three segments of time, two of which are mention there in verse 25. The first is a 7 week period representing a period of 49 years. During these 49 years the " the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times" in Jerusalem. The second is a 62 week period representing a period of 454 years which concludes with the coming of "Messiah the Prince."The total time here is 483 years.

It's matter of simple grammar that man's interpretation refuses to even acknowledge, let alone see:

"And after (Hebrew: achar, meaning following after) sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself."

After 7 weeks plus 62 weeks (after 483 weeks) means in the middle of the 70th week. Simple grammar.

"And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war." (Dan 9:26)

The people of the ruler who came to destroy the city and the scanctuary were the Romans, led by their prince, Titus.

The overspreading of abominations was the continuation of sacrifices for sins in the temple after the tearing of the veil in the middle of the 70th week.

And there's a good chance that THAT could occur again:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come. Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)... Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains....

... for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Mat 24:14-16, 21-22).

"Therefore"... "when you see"...

Simple grammar - and it's all about the acceptance or rejection of the blood of Jesus as the once-for all sacrifice for sins and the end of the Mosical sacrificial system which was part of the law of Moses, which was written by Moses on a scroll and placed on the side of the ark of the covenant, and not by the finger of God on tablets of stone and placed inside the ark of the covenant, as the ten commandments were.

IMO

[BlindSeeker]

Blindseeker,

Have you considered the possiblity that there is also dual fulfillment to some prophecies? Not debating just asking some questions.

Yes, Mizzdy, I have not only considered it, but to some degree believe it. In this sense, when God has His prophets forewarn judgment on the wicked for their sins, idolatry, forsaking Him . . . then I believe we can/will see that judgment prophesied repeated on others/nations who do the same as the former. That is because of the righteousness of God . . . He is not a respecter of persons.

However, to say that a prophecy about a particular thing will again be fulfilled in another thing completely different, no. If Daniel 9:27 is speaking of Christ confirming the covenant and being cut off mid week, after 3

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ May 14 2010, 04:17 PM)

The tribulation is known as "The Day of the Lord." Is. 2:12; 13:6-9; Joel 1:15; 2:1-31; 3:14; 1 Thess. 5:2.

Ok, here are all your verses for everyone to read, as well as ones referencing

[BlindSeeker]

So what, specifically, do you disagree with in the above statement of mine?

I posted on your thread, as well as here. Feel free to read it.

[Axxman]

Perhaps you could expound (not on you're being "a dispensational pre-millennialist").

Is there other witnesses of scripture to this theology you say is "built on an understanding of the prophecy of Daniel 9?" Certainly, there must be more scriptures that substantiates the 7 year tribulation. I find it odd that such a predominate and widely embraced end time teaching would have the foundation of only one passage.

Please, again I say, feel free to expound . . . and don't worry about length.

William

The problem is...if we don't see eye to eye on this passage, the rest really don't matter. Everything in both camps rests predominantly on the understanding of Daniel 9. Personally I take a futurists view and build scriptural evidence from that base. You take a historicist view of Daniel 9 and build from that base. It is highly unlikely we will ever agree on this topic as you don't view the separation of the weeks the same way I do.

For the record I did read your long post in reply. We are clearly not reading, or studying it, the same way.