Just Curious

[EricH]

i believe salvation is more of a heart issue than a mind issue. what does romans 10:9-10 say?

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

it is our heart calling out for a Savior--even if we don't know all about Him at the time. the Holy Spirit's job is to teach and instruct.

Actually it is both. We are commanded to love God with all of our hearts, souls, and minds. At various times in history humans have tried to raise one over the other. Faith that saves comes from all of our beings (heart, soul, and mind). Faith is not simply a matter of the heart. With out correct knowledge our hearts can be misdirected. It is also not just about the mind (having the right doctrine). It is also not just about the soul (a mystical experience).

[ayin jade]

Wow.

Where would it end?

Is someone saved who thinks Jesus isnt God but an angel named michael?

Is someone saved who thinks Jesus is a prophet and a man only?

What are the essentials then?

Would you like to have your salvation determined by how accurately you hold to everything in the Bible?

There is a difference between people who choose to teach and lead others in error vs. those who hold error in ignorance. When a person is shown the truth and rejects it, that is a different matter.

Each of us is at a different place of spiritual maturity in our walk and we need to be mindful that some biblical error is the product of genuine ignorance and not stubborn rebellion.

Some things are not negotiable. Thinking He is merely man, or merely created angel is wrong.

If its ok to think He is merely an angel, then muslims must be saved too since they just misunderstand who He is like someone who thinks He is merely an angel. JWs then must be saved too.

What do you consider the essentials of faith shiloh?

I realize that belief for or against evolution isnt an essential core doctrine, but holding to whom He is I think is essential.

[~candice~]

There is a difference between thinking that Michael was Jesus, and that Jesus was Michael.

The former... incorrectly suggests that someone who wasn't God, was God.

The later... incorrectly suggests that someone who IS God, wasn't God.

There are endless debates about pre-incarnate Christ. Just find a thread about Melchizedek. I don't think that accidently believing someone who is not God, is God, in that framework, renders a person unsaved.

The other way around... I have issues with.

I think I've made this about as clear as mud . Brain not connected tonight.

[~candice~]

There is a difference between thinking that Michael was Jesus, and that Jesus was Michael.

The former... incorrectly suggests that someone who wasn't God, was God.

The later... incorrectly suggests that someone who IS God, wasn't God.

There are endless debates about pre-incarnate Christ. Just find a thread about Melchizedek. I don't think that accidently believing someone who is not God, is God, in that framework, renders a person unsaved.

The other way around... I have issues with.

I think I've made this about as clear as mud . Brain not connected tonight.

Thinking ,and thus worshiping,a being that is not God is idolatry.

Isa 43:10-12 LITV

(10) You are My witnesses, says Jehovah; and My servant whom I have elected; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed; nor shall any be after Me.

(11) I, I am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides Me.

(12) I declared, and I saved, and I proclaimed; and there is not an alien god among you. And you are My witnesses, says Jehovah, and I am God.

Idolatry, yes. But it doesn't render someone unsaved.

[Guest shiloh357]

Wow.

Where would it end?

Is someone saved who thinks Jesus isnt God but an angel named michael?

Is someone saved who thinks Jesus is a prophet and a man only?

What are the essentials then?

Would you like to have your salvation determined by how accurately you hold to everything in the Bible?

There is a difference between people who choose to teach and lead others in error vs. those who hold error in ignorance. When a person is shown the truth and rejects it, that is a different matter.

Each of us is at a different place of spiritual maturity in our walk and we need to be mindful that some biblical error is the product of genuine ignorance and not stubborn rebellion.

There is a difference between saying someone must have every detail of their doctrine correct to be saved and saying that their faith must be in Christ alone for salvation. It is true that folks have varying opinions about Jesus for various reasons. But it is important what we believe about Him. Otherwise we could find ourselves saying it does not matter what a person believes as long as they have a good reason for believing it.

I agree, but I know people who have gotten saved while holding some really strange stuff from former cults they were part of, like Mormons and JWs. It took some time for those notions to be unlearned and replaced with the truth. I think that God winks that kind of ignorance for a time and that grace can cover error in those limited situations.

[~candice~]

There is a difference between thinking that Michael was Jesus, and that Jesus was Michael.

The former... incorrectly suggests that someone who wasn't God, was God.

The later... incorrectly suggests that someone who IS God, wasn't God.

There are endless debates about pre-incarnate Christ. Just find a thread about Melchizedek. I don't think that accidently believing someone who is not God, is God, in that framework, renders a person unsaved.

The other way around... I have issues with.

I think I've made this about as clear as mud . Brain not connected tonight.

Thinking ,and thus worshiping,a being that is not God is idolatry.

Isa 43:10-12 LITV

(10) You are My witnesses, says Jehovah; and My servant whom I have elected; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed; nor shall any be after Me.

(11) I, I am Jehovah; and there is no Savior besides Me.

(12) I declared, and I saved, and I proclaimed; and there is not an alien god among you. And you are My witnesses, says Jehovah, and I am God.

Idolatry, yes. But it doesn't render someone unsaved.

ASIGT

What is ASIGT?

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm not putting a burden on anyone. But we can't treat the Word as if it's some dime store novel. When you say it's alright to dismiss certain truths as long you believe the essentials, you cheapen the Word.

I don't think that is what Andy is saying at all. She alreay stated at the front that the issue you raised was a heresy.

Besides that, if a person is truly saved, they would not necessarily hold to the notion that it doesn't matter what you believe.

In post #5, you asked if God would recognize those believed in Jesus as being Michael the Archangel as His children. The groups that hold to that view also hold to several other unbiblical views and one in particular teaches that you must keep the 10 commandments to be saved. I do not believe either group are within the pale of authentic Christianity.

I just think we need to extend some grace to those get saved out of cults and are in the process of unlearning some stuff that was seriously intrenched and ingrained in their thinking.

A person who refuses to change, or worse attempts to spread their cult views, needs to be dealt with as appropirate. Their profession of faith may not be genuine.

[PRAISE HIM!]

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. If we take a look at this verse and interprete it just as it says and with what some believe that Jesus is Michael then we are saying that Jesus is one of the chief princes among other chiefs!

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/michael.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Michael-Archangel.html

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/michael.shtml

But frankly arguing about who believes this or that is irrelevant because tehere will be false and distorted truths and doctrinal errors. In stead let us look to the Holy Spirit our Comforter for help and answers to to questions that baffle us.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Joh 14:16-17

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Joh 14:26

The Holy Spirit is the only one to turn to when confused. Shalom

[Guest shiloh357]

There is a difference between thinking that Michael was Jesus, and that Jesus was Michael.

The former... incorrectly suggests that someone who wasn't God, was God.

The later... incorrectly suggests that someone who IS God, wasn't God.

There are endless debates about pre-incarnate Christ. Just find a thread about Melchizedek. I don't think that accidently believing someone who is not God, is God, in that framework, renders a person unsaved.

The other way around... I have issues with.

I think I've made this about as clear as mud . Brain not connected tonight.

Either way around are problematic and both wrong. Melchizedek is not the same thing. He actually WAS an preincarnate appearance of Christ.

Bible never makes any connection between Michael and Jesus and for anyone to connect them in any manner is wrong.

[PRAISE HIM!]

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. If we take a look at this verse and interprete it just as it says and with what some believe that Jesus is Michael then we are saying that Jesus is one of the chief princes among other chiefs!

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/michael.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Michael-Archangel.html

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/michael.shtml

But frankly arguing about who believes this or that is irrelevant because tehere will be false and distorted truths and doctrinal errors. In stead let us look to the Holy Spirit our Comforter for help and answers to to questions that baffle us.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Joh 14:16-17

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Joh 14:26

The Holy Spirit is the only one to turn to when confused. Shalom