WN: IDF: Soldiers were met by well-planned lynch in Gaza waters - Jer

[hupo]

amor,

For the record and being practical about it here's today's story, not the sea battle dramatic news

I went on a trip to Jerusalem to visit the western wall underground tunnels and some of the churches in the city

We went through "Wadi Ara" which is one of the main roads and is packed solid with Arab villages. We also walked the streets of old Jerusalem including the Muslim quarters.

The media reported unrest everywhere, so I was on the lookout for any unrest.

Do you know how many Palestinian flags I counted?

Not a one!!! not to mention any heated debates, road blocks or demonstrations.....nothing!!!

The only flags I saw were Brazil, Germany, Italy, UK and many of each.... all waiting for the world cup...... does that signify anything?

What I am saying here is that most Palestinians in Israel want peace. They just want to have a life and grow their families, business and culture

That goes for Palestinians in refugee camps too although I haven't been to Gaza for a while (guess why), most Palestinians speak to me in private about "Lets just get on with our lives". Many of them don't even want a Palestinian state. They are very afraid of it!! and you should hear some of them cursing their leaders!!!

Now, you can listen to people like that, or you can listen to the hysterical media, and fanatic Islamic groups. Take you pick (using your conscience of course)

What do YOU come up with?

[Guest shiloh357]

What I am saying here is that most Palestinians in Israel want peace. They just want to have a life and grow their families, business and culture

That goes for Palestinians in refugee camps too although I haven't been to Gaza for a while (guess why), most Palestinians speak to me in private about "Lets just get on with our lives". Many of them don't even want a Palestinian state.

The dream of a Palestinian state is really an empty fantasy fostered by the international community.

Many Palestinians that have been interviewed prefer to live under the Israelis as opposed to any Muslim government. In Israel they have more freedom and prosperity. What do you get under Hamas and Fatah??? Just more poverty, war and misery.

[Burning_Ember]

It was attempting to violate an Israeli maritime blockade. The vessel entered the blockaded area and under international maritime law, Israel was within its rights to board and investigate the vessel. The fact that they were international waters is irrelevant.

The maritime blockade was publically announced by Israel in accordance to international law and has publically given all due notice required of them according to all the rules of international law.

It was a boat loaded with terrorist activists on their way to Gaza from Turkey under the false pretense of providing humanitarian aid. Humanitarians would not have objected to being boarded and searched. They lynched the IDF sailors upon their arrival on board. They injured several and killed at least one IDF sailor. The IDF soldiers responded with deadly force to meet a deadly threat. Those activists were not humanitarians in any sense of the word. They are nothing but terrorists.

What about the other five boats, and the aid on board the boat?

It is possible to blame THIS kind of opposition as anti-Semitism because it singles Israel out for special condemnation over measures and policies that are used and enforced by other nations in protection of their sovereign interests. Israel's sovereign interests have been ignored and Israel has been internationally condemned over the exact same defensive and legal measures employed by other nations such as the US without a single word of condemnation from the world. To single Israel out in that manner is VERY anti-Semitic.

No, I hold Israel tot he same standards as any other nation. You mentioned something later in this post where I'll explain that further.

There was no disproportionality whatsoever that took place.

Let me explain from the standpoint of international law what proportionate force is.

When international legal experts use the term "disproportionate use of force," they have a very precise meaning in mind. As the President of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague, Rosalyn Higgins, has noted, proportionality "cannot be in relation to any specific prior injury - it has to be in relation to the overall legitimate objective of ending the aggression." (R. Higgins, cited in "Responding to Hamas Attacks from Gaza - Issues of Proportionality Background Paper," Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, March 2008.) JCPA Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs

What that means is that "proportionate force" is defined as the amount of force needed to eliminate the threat. It is not a one-for-one, tit-for-tat response. It is the amount of military muscle and ferocity needed to end whatever threat your enemy is imposing and force them to dispair of further conflict.

On the boat that definition fits, but not in the larger picture of Gaza and Israel, and the regular conflicts.

Do you consider this proportional?

Most of Israel's mistakes would never have been made in the first place were they not facing the kind of threats they face.

Please explain what you mean by this. Are you saying (as an example,) that Israeli Soldiers are not fully responsible for their actions when they commit human rights violations, that they are only responsible in that they are responding in a logical manner given the high pressure of the Psychological Situations they are in?

You cannot with any degree of moral clarity rightly compare Israel's bad decisions and errors in judgment made in a sincere attempt at self-defense with the genuinely "reprehensible" actions of her enemies

If the actions are directly comparable, yes, it is completely accurate to condemn both.

who use their own innocent children as human shields,

Which for a long time was known as 'The Neighbour Procedure', used by The IDF, and that human shields were used as recently as 2009 by the IDF.

It is a horrifying and reprehensible action when Terrorists use innocents as human shields.

It is a horrifying and reprehensible action when Israeli Soldiers use innocents as human shields.

It is not better or justifiable in either circumstance.

deny humanitarian aid to their own people in order to manufacture a crisis,

Gaza cannot receive seeds for Farms, Cattle, Chickens, or Wood for Construction among other things.) From the Economist.

The humanitarian situation has gotten much worse in Gaza since the Blockade.

15,000 Tons of aid is 45,000 Tons short, according to the UN.

"Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government."

It is reprehensible and horrifying when Hamas restricts aid to people who need food and aid in Gaza. Likewise;

It is reprehensible and horrifying when Israel restricts aid to people who need food and aid in Gaza.

Neither is good, justifiable, or better than the other.

and indiscriminately target innocent Israelis with bombs and rockets and mortar attacks.

155mm Artillery Cannons aren't especially accurate either.

It is horrifying and reprehensible when Qassam Rockets kill innocent Civilians. Likewise;

It is horrifying and reprehensible when Israeli Artillery Shells kill innocent Civilians.

Neither are better than the other, especially It is largely Civilians that are killed.

On those issues, they are moral equivalents. Excusing Hamas, or Israel, because they are "attempting to defend people" through use of human shields, restriction of aid, or use of Rockets/Artillery is inexcusable.

[Isaiah 6:8]

SO B.E. You seem to think that Israel are the true problem.

Yes not every Israeli attack, counter attack, defensive action is free of civilian casualties. They do not try to kill innocents. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PLO, ETC. Do however target innocents. When was the last time you heard of an Israeli 15 year old girl, strap a bomb to her waist, walk into a crowded store full of innocent women and children and blowing herself up?

B.E. I have never had much respect for you, butting in to the United States business, but defending the attackers of Israel, this is over the top even for you. On Judgement day I do not want to be in your shoes as Israels enemy's are among the ones to be judged the most harshly.

[Guest yod]

This is such baloney that I have a real hard time even believing that an intelligent person with half a brain would fall for such obvious propoganda as this staged event was!?

I mean, we got it on film. The digital cameras don't lie. This was a trap from the beginning.

We also heard Israel saying this boat would not be allowed in it's waters long before it arrived. Every hypocritical nation in this world has restrictions on foreign vessels and the right to disallow passage of any craft; land, sea, or air.

You guys do realize that the government and leadership of Gaza (a.k.a. Hamas) are on the US State Department's list of Terrorists?

Do you know why? Because they are TERRORISTS!!!! These terrorists are the reason why ANYONE who lives in Gaza has it really bad. These terrorists are the problem, not Israel.

But the haters see a way to divide the US from Israel and I only hope that our government had nothing to do with setting this up to be the "BIG LIE" that it is.

Anyone who falls for this is either really lacking in media discernment skills, or blinded by hatred, or driven by a murderous ideology....pure and simple

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jun 1 2010, 09:33 AM)

It was attempting to violate an Israeli maritime blockade. The vessel entered the blockaded area and under international maritime law, Israel was within its rights to board and investigate the vessel. The fact that they were international waters is irrelevant.

The maritime blockade was publically announced by Israel in accordance to international law and has publically given all due notice required of them according to all the rules of international law.

It was a boat loaded with terrorist activists on their way to Gaza from Turkey under the false pretense of providing humanitarian aid. Humanitarians would not have objected to being boarded and searched. They lynched the IDF sailors upon their arrival on board. They injured several and killed at least one IDF sailor. The IDF soldiers responded with deadly force to meet a deadly threat. Those activists were not humanitarians in any sense of the word. They are nothing but terrorists.

What about the other five boats, and the aid on board the boat?

What about them?? Israel is not opposed to ships carrying food, genuine humanitarian aid. Israel allowed the aid on the boats to make it to Gaza. The problem is that the boats refused to be searched, and that is what led to the raid. Had they cooperated with Israel and simply allowed Israel to inspect the cargo, they would have been allowed through.

There is a long history of terrorists using "humanitarianism" as a cloak in order to smuggle weapons in to terrorists in both the West Bank and Gaza. There have been instances where bags of flour and sugar were actually used to smuggle guns and so forth. The terrorists use any means they can to get weapons past Israel to the terrorists and so Israel simply cannot allow boats on their way to Gaza to go unchecked.

On the boat that definition fits, but not in the larger picture of Gaza and Israel, and the regular conflicts.

Do you consider this proportional?

Just because more Palestinians have been killed does not mean Israel is uisng disporportionate force. You have to keep in mind that many Palestinians are killed by Israel because the terrorists purposefully place innocent people in harm's way in order to maximize civilian casualties. They use their own children as cannon fodder and human shields in order to gain more propaganda points on the evening news. In fact, when you want to discuss the reason more Palestinians have been killed, you need to take in the entire conflict. Many are killed by their own manical practice of suicide bombing. Some are killed by their own bombs prematurely. Others have been shot and killed by other Palestinians for questioning the use of terror. Others have been killed by Israeli soldiers while in the process of attempting to carry out an attack.

Assuming for a minute, that you COULD lay every Palestinian death at Israel's doorstep (which you can't), proportionate force is not defined as a one-to-one casualty rate, accoriding to international law. It is defined as the amount of force needed to meet and eliminate the threat.

There have always been a higher death rate amoung the Palestinians but that is because of the tactics of the terrorists who have no moral compunction about wasting the lives of their own people. Israel takes every measure possible to minimize civilian casualties, but no one can fight a sanitary war. Israel is at war with, not only the Palestinians, but with entire Arab/Muslim war that is seeking Israel's complete annihilation.

QUOTE

Most of Israel's mistakes would never have been made in the first place were they not facing the kind of threats they face.

Please explain what you mean by this. Are you saying (as an example,) that Israeli Soldiers are not fully responsible for their actions when they commit human rights violations, that they are only responsible in that they are responding in a logical manner given the high pressure of the Psychological Situations they are in?

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that Israel's errors in judgment and wrong decisions were not made out of some vicious desire to brutalize or otherwise mistreat the Palestinians. Mistakes happen in war, but Israel's mistakes are always placed in a vacuum by the liberal world as if Israel is the bully of the Middleeast. They want to discuss Israel's defensive measures in a vacuum without discussing the actions of the terrorists that precipitated those defensive measures.

My point is that those errors would not have been made in the first place if there was no terrorism to combat. Israel's actions are purely defensive in nature, as evidenced by what happened on the flotilla, but the liberal media wants to characterize it as act meant to persecute or deny humanitarian aid to the Palestinians in Gaza. The fact that Israel's blockade is a defensive measure against free weapon flows to Gaza doesn't seem to make it on the air. Everyone just wants to look it as "those mean ol' Israelis and their horrible blockade." They don't want to discuss the terrorism that made the blockade necessary in the first place.

Israel does not try to justify civilian deaths. Far from it. Israel always regrets any loss of innocent civilian life that result from it defensive actions, but the blame cannnot lay primarily on Israel. The blame rests primarily on the terrorists and their barbarous tactics that are meant to maximize civilian casualties. Most Palestinian suffering is self-inflicted due to the insane goal of wiping Israel off the map.

QUOTE

You cannot with any degree of moral clarity rightly compare Israel's bad decisions and errors in judgment made in a sincere attempt at self-defense with the genuinely "reprehensible" actions of her enemies

If the actions are directly comparable, yes, it is completely accurate to condemn both.

QUOTE

who use their own innocent children as human shields,

Which for a long time was known as 'The Neighbour Procedure', used by The IDF, and that human shields were used as recently as 2009 by the IDF.

It is a horrifying and reprehensible action when Terrorists use innocents as human shields.

It is a horrifying and reprehensible action when Israeli Soldiers use innocents as human shields.

It is not better or justifiable in either circumstance.

Despite your information being out of date, the two are not really comparable given the inaccurate evidence you provide. The Palestinians use human shields in order to maximize the human casualty toll. Israel used Palestinians to deliver warnings to potential targets to warn civilians to move out of the way. That does not fit the definition of "human shield." The Palestinians would force civilians into battle zones so that they would be killed. Israel has NEVER had any such policy toward the Palestinians or their own people.

That is not to say that IDF soldiers have not crossed the lines and have done some horrible things and committed human rights violations. The difference though is that they were tried for their crimes and are in prison for life. The terrorists, on the other hand are praised and treated like heroes when they commit such atrocities. For a time, children could buy bubble gum trading cards with the names and faces of terrorists and the terrorists were seen as role models to be admired by Palestinian young people.

Just beacuse Israel is accused of using human shields doesn't make it so. Israel has been accused of a lot of things that later turned out to be false. Israel has been accused of poisoning Palestinian water, they have been accused burying Palestinians in mass graves, Israeli doctors have been accused of harvesting Palestinian body parts and organs and so on.

Gaza cannot receive seeds for Farms, Cattle, Chickens, or Wood for Construction among other things.) From the Economist.

The humanitarian situation has gotten much worse in Gaza since the Blockade.

15,000 Tons of aid is 45,000 Tons short, according to the UN.

"Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government."

It is reprehensible and horrifying when Hamas restricts aid to people who need food and aid in Gaza. Likewise;

It is reprehensible and horrifying when Israel restricts aid to people who need food and aid in Gaza.

Neither is good, justifiable, or better than the other.

Again, you are getting wrong information. It is true that the Israelis are not treating them like royalty, but there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

The list of Israeli aid to Gaza is so impressive that the question has been asked why Israel is doing so much for an entity with which it is in a state of armed conflict. The question is made more acute in view of the promises the Israeli government made regarding

[Shiloh62]

These were obviously not peaceful protestors; my guess is that they are terrorists recruited by Hamas.

Pro-palestinian protesters. Hardly peaceful nor neutral.

OK, I'm confused. Israeli soldiers that are pro-palestinian? Why?

[~candice~]

These were obviously not peaceful protestors; my guess is that they are terrorists recruited by Hamas.

Pro-palestinian protesters. Hardly peaceful nor neutral.

OK, I'm confused. Israeli soldiers that are pro-palestinian? Why?

Pause and reflect a little here .

The so called humanitarian ship was harboring pro-Palestinian protesters. Why would it make sense that an Israeli soldier would be a pro-Palestianian protester?

[Shiloh62]

These were obviously not peaceful protestors; my guess is that they are terrorists recruited by Hamas.

Pro-palestinian protesters. Hardly peaceful nor neutral.

OK, I'm confused. Israeli soldiers that are pro-palestinian? Why?

Pause and reflect a little here .

The so called humanitarian ship was harboring pro-Palestinian protesters. Why would it make sense that an Israeli soldier would be a pro-Palestianian protester?

I didn't understand it either!

[Arthur Durnan]

The essential problem in the Middle East is polygamist WarLord Muhammad's Islam philosophy settled in the seventh-century which militates against all Jewish peoples everywhere including the very State of Israel itself. The "self-styled "aid boats" are Muslim & pro-Muslim anti-Semites united in their attempt to eliminate the Jewish State period! Well-known socialist united against Israel were on board the military boats including black former U.S. congresswoman Cynthia McKinney who I believe stated that George W. Bush was behind the 9-11 tragedy! "Birds of a feather flock and float together!'

Staying true to biblical declaration, the very area called by UltraLib News Media Elite the "West Bank" is much rather Judea and Samaria with Israel's eternal capital of Jerusalem so designated by King David 3000-years ago. We miss the boat - no pun intended - when we think this latest incident involved aid for Hamas-controlled Gaza; to the contrary, it's one small part of the eternal battle to eliminate world Jewry under the auspices of Satan himself & his compatriots. The battle has been continuing since Isaac & Ishmael which, of course, precedes by far this most recent Muslim-inspired incident.

Contrary to one or two on this board, I blame the Obama administration & its weak-kneed approach to the Middle East & the verities of God's setted Word re Israel & its land. One waits long & hard for Obama to underscore Israel's ownership of Israel and the need for God-fearing people to come to its aid & agree with the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis. I also understand that many politicians (not all) are, well, politicians seeking to appease, to essentially side with both viewpoints in order to gratify constituents and thus gain re-election. It's my most intense undertstanding that a Sarah Palin, if elected in 2012, will, prove a stalwart best friend of little Israel, a nation surrounded by 21 hostile Muslim entities