Is America the Great Babylon?

[lekh l'kha]

I think BB is talking about history, Neb.

Well, he said Scripture, so....

But the Roman Empire, though it might have broken up into 10 kingdoms after the fall of Jerusalem, was not defeated and did not "go into perdition". . . .

The thing (about the destruction of "Babylon the great") is that Rev.17:16 says it's the 10 kings that destroy her. . . .

Good points!

I'm waiting to see if our brother Bold Believer is going to bring in an ad-hoc theory now to explain how the 10 kings destroyed Jerusalem before they came into existence, since the 10 kingdoms BB refers to only came into existence after the destruction of Jerusalem!

[papasangel]

I do not believe that America is Babylon. In fact since the current trend in the world is to blame America for the worlds ills and then to have it's leader apologizing for all the "evil" we have cast on the world its no wonder that there will be those quick to assume the worst of America. No America is not perfect. Never said we were. But we have been there to help minister to those who hunger, thirst and need medical attention. More so because we have been blessed by God with a land that we have been led to in one way shape or another. I would ask those who cast stones at other countries etc to first examine their own country. Then if you can find no fault within your own country you have the right to cast a stone. Remember Jesus's response to the woman who was brought up to him caught in Adultry. They wanted Jesus to judge her and therefore give them the right of judgment. She was accused and Jesus just drew in the dust until He finally said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone>\." After a while her accusers left and Jesus looked at her and said, "Woman where are your accusers? " For they had given up baiting Jesus with her. And then He told her to go and sin no more. If more of us were willing not to be judgmental and accuse others then maybe just maybe we can understand the salvation of forgiveness in the context it is to be taken in.

[other one]

If America is not Babylon, then where do we fit in in the end time phrphesies...... one way or the other we don't seem to be in a really great position for the end. Either the great evil, or insignificant... I think I like the insignificant road best. Then there is that making war with the saints and overcoming them...... Oh well, it seems we have a rough road ahead no matter which way it goes..... but it doesn't sound like it's going to be boring much of the time........ thank God for that anyway.

[nebula]

If America is not Babylon, then where do we fit in in the end time phrphesies......

I've heard a good argument for America being the Beast from the Land. (Horns of a lamb but talks like a dragon.)

It's also possible we'll bankrupt or "tolerate" ourselves into insignificance for the End times events

[other one]

If America is not Babylon, then where do we fit in in the end time phrphesies......

I've heard a good argument for America being the Beast from the Land. (Horns of a lamb but talks like a dragon.)

It's also possible we'll bankrupt or "tolerate" ourselves into insignificance for the End times events

I like the idea of being so insignificant that the beasts won't know we're here. All I need is a good wife and a little food...... maybe air conditoning would help LoL.

[lekh l'kha]

If America is not Babylon, then where do we fit in in the end time phrphesies......

The same place Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Jamaica, .... fit in end time prophecy.

America's a great place and Americans are great people, but because of your 1945-2010 super-power status you can't envision that the U.S is just "one of the nations". Why should America be in end-time prophecy any more than Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Canada, South Africa?

"And in that day I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all peoples. All who lift it shall be slashed, and all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it." (Zec 12:3)

Is Australia singled out there?

How about New Zealand?

How about Canada, Kenya, Malaysia, Japan?

"The United States doesn't fit in anywhere in Bible prophecy!"

But why be shocked?

There are nations singled out in Bible prophecy - the ancient nations of Egypt, Syria (Damascus) and the ancient region of "Mount Seir" (modern day Syria and Jordan, which includes Elam and Edom which are also singled out in Bible prophecy). Even "the prince of Persia" is mentioned (Iran). And the Roman Empire is also mentioned.

But no, no other nations are mentioned in Bible prophecy. They are part of "the nations".

[lekh l'kha]

Here's a hypothetical (but very plausible) 2011 scenario:

1. No American troops in Iraq.

2. The dollar and the Euro collapse and Europe, North America, South America, Australia & New Zealand enter into a great depression that makes the great depression of the 1920's look like a feast. America withdraws all troops from Afghanistan.

3. Iran, in alliance with Turkey and Syria, invades Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon and annexes them, creating a new Ottoman-Turk empire which "heals the wound to one of the beast's heads" (which was "mortally wounded" in the first world war by the defeat of the Ottoman Turk Empire).

4. Europe succumbs to Sharia law and joins the new empire.

5. All those nations, in alliance with Russia, attack Jerusalem.

I'm not saying those things are going to happen. But I am saying they could happen. We can't work out how Bible prophecy is going to unravel because we can't know what big changes are going to happen tomorrow - how many of us thought the Berlin wall was going to be thrown open 1 year before it was? How many of us knew that communism would collapse in Eastern Europe 2 years before it did?

We have to concentrate on the symbolism of the Old Testament - because the Revelation uses Old Testament symbolism and ancient symbolism, at that.

Babylon the Great is a world religious system, which is married to a political system. Individual nations today such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and many Islamic nations have such a system, but at the moment the West no longer has such a system. No-one knows what sort of dramatic changes can happen within the next 5 years or 4 years or 2 years or 1 year in this world we live in. We will identify the 8th kingdom/empire with hindsight, when it's upon us. When it's upon us, then we will know "that's it!".

[BlindSeeker]

What I'd like to know is, when the 10 kings go to war against the harlot, are they not actually destroying the throne of the beast in the process?:

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

(Rev 17:15)

"And the fifth angel poured out his vial (bowl of wrath) upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,"

(Rev 16:10)

Sorry for the delayed reply.

Yes, the ten kings war against the whore does destroy the seat of the beast. Since I am persuaded the 8th which goes into destruction is America, the seat of the beast would be the District of Columbia. I found it to be somewhat prophetic that when President G.W. Bush pushed his father’s vision of “land for peace” upon Israel that the space shuttle Columbia exploded of Palestine Texas. This was the first time there was an Israeli on board, and here Columbia becomes a shooting star for all the world to see, a prophetic sign of the judgment reserved for the beast . . . as you duly noted in your submittal of Rev 16:10.

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

(Rev 14:8)

It falls in between these verses:

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

(Rev 14:6-7, 9-10)

In these verses we read that the gospel is going out into all the world accompanied with a command to worship God, and this is contrasted with a warning not to worship the beast and his image, and the reason for this is because "the hour of His (God's) judgment has come", and in-between those verses we are told, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

I don't know how much meaning there is in that, if any - but if "Babylon the Great" refers to the false religions of the world and "she" has fallen, then it makes sense that this would pave the way for the gospel "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people".

Again, I believe America is the eight and the whore the pseudo religious system which has fought against the real religion which worships God in spirit and truth. To me it is not hard to see how the apostate “Christian” religious system in America has render the gospel, which is not the gospel but rather a perversion there of ineffective to enable “saint” to live godly. However, that is but a small facet of the overall union of the whore, or mother of harlots with the beast.

The leaders of America have embraced any religion with zeal . . . so long as it isn’t the truth of the Gospel itself. They are fornicating with them making themselves virtually “one flesh” with the mother of harlots whereby her seat is the seat of the government itself in the end. They embrace doctrines of devils, fables, while calling those who hold forth the righteous percepts of God’s holy words possible treats and terrorists.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

But it's the 10 kings who reign for one hour with the beast (and who give their power and authority to the beast) who destroy the harlot who is called "Babylon the great".

All I know is that we don't have enough info yet in order to correctly identify either the beast that rises from the bottomless pit or the harlot it carries.

I will still submit that the merging of power one hour with the beast is but a very short term agreement of the EU to have a common currency with America in an attempt to offset China steadily growing economic power and influence.

One thing that has always brought about God’s judgment on nations is when they exercise themselves beyond their lawful (God’s established) realm of influence.

Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood

all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation

.

Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations,

and parted My land.

Can any say that America has not gone beyond its lawful realm of influence on other nations? Have we not required of Israel the parting of God’s land?

[lekh l'kha]

What I'd like to know is, when the 10 kings go to war against the harlot, are they not actually destroying the throne of the beast in the process?:

"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

(Rev 17:15)

"And the fifth angel poured out his vial (bowl of wrath) upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,"

(Rev 16:10)

Sorry for the delayed reply.

Yes, the ten kings war against the whore does destroy the seat of the beast. Since I am persuaded the 8th which goes into destruction is America, the seat of the beast would be the District of Columbia. I found it to be somewhat prophetic that when President G.W. Bush pushed his father’s vision of “land for peace” upon Israel that the space shuttle Columbia exploded of Palestine Texas. This was the first time there was an Israeli on board, and here Columbia becomes a shooting star for all the world to see, a prophetic sign of the judgment reserved for the beast . . . as you duly noted in your submittal of Rev 16:10.

"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

(Rev 14:8)

It falls in between these verses:

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

(Rev 14:6-7, 9-10)

In these verses we read that the gospel is going out into all the world accompanied with a command to worship God, and this is contrasted with a warning not to worship the beast and his image, and the reason for this is because "the hour of His (God's) judgment has come", and in-between those verses we are told, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

I don't know how much meaning there is in that, if any - but if "Babylon the Great" refers to the false religions of the world and "she" has fallen, then it makes sense that this would pave the way for the gospel "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people".

Again, I believe America is the eight and the whore the pseudo religious system which has fought against the real religion which worships God in spirit and truth. To me it is not hard to see how the apostate “Christian” religious system in America has render the gospel, which is not the gospel but rather a perversion there of ineffective to enable “saint” to live godly. However, that is but a small facet of the overall union of the whore, or mother of harlots with the beast.

The leaders of America have embraced any religion with zeal . . . so long as it isn’t the truth of the Gospel itself. They are fornicating with them making themselves virtually “one flesh” with the mother of harlots whereby her seat is the seat of the government itself in the end. They embrace doctrines of devils, fables, while calling those who hold forth the righteous percepts of God’s holy words possible treats and terrorists.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

But it's the 10 kings who reign for one hour with the beast (and who give their power and authority to the beast) who destroy the harlot who is called "Babylon the great".

All I know is that we don't have enough info yet in order to correctly identify either the beast that rises from the bottomless pit or the harlot it carries.

I will still submit that the merging of power one hour with the beast is but a very short term agreement of the EU to have a common currency with America in an attempt to offset China steadily growing economic power and influence.

One thing that has always brought about God’s judgment on nations is when they exercise themselves beyond their lawful (God’s established) realm of influence.

Ac 17:26 And hath made of one blood

all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation

.

Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations,

and parted My land.

Can any say that America has not gone beyond its lawful realm of influence on other nations? Have we not required of Israel the parting of God’s land?

I understand your points. But the E.U and the U.N (representing all nations) have required the same. And many, many nations are guilty of the same things you state America is guilty of with regards to their courting of a false gospel and false religions and suppression of the true gospel.

With regard to Europe, one European "Jihad watch" group says,

"The European Union acts secretly, with the European people being deceived about its development. Democracy is being deliberately removed, the latest example being the Lisbon treaty. However, the plan goes much further with an ultimate goal of being a European-Arabian super-state, incorporating Muslim countries of north Africa and the Middle East in the European Union. This is already initiated with the signing of the Barcelona treaty in 95 by the EU and nine north African states, and it became effective the first of January, 2010 - this year. It is also known as the Euro-Mediterranean co-operation. In return for some European control of oil resources, Muslim countries will have unfettered access to technology and movement of people into Europe. The price Europeans will have to pay is the introduction of sharia law and removal of democracy."

After the end of WWII, General Charles de Gaulle of France envisioned a strong and united Europe as a counter-weight to American supremacy, which he loathed. In order to do achieve this goal, he had to begin a decades-long process of signing (and convince European Community nations to sign) a host of economic, political, social and military agreements with the Arab-League nations in order to create a Euro-Arab trade block. This is why there are so many Muslims in Europe today. History text books at European universities were changed to placate Arab-Muslim sensitivities for example.

Muslim couples living in British and European cities have on average 8 children per couple. Indigenous Brits and Europeans have on average 1,8 children per couple. Already there are concerns that within the next 20 years huge parts of European countries will have a majority of Islamic voters.

I don't have to say more. I think you get the picture. America is not the only superpower in the world and America is not alone with regards to the sins you mention in your post. Maybe America will be part of a Euro-Arab empire one day, but I don't think America will dominate such an empire. It will be dominated from the region of ancient Babylon. It could be that the whore is Islam, and the ten regional rulers will eventually fight against Islam, destroying the throne of the Euro-Arab empire.

But you could be right, not saying you're wrong. Just saying that I don't know who exactly Babylon the Great is yet, neither do I know what the 8th kingdom is going to look like.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I do not believe that America is Babylon. In fact since the current trend in the world is to blame America for the worlds ills and then to have it's leader apologizing for all the "evil" we have cast on the world its no wonder that there will be those quick to assume the worst of America. No America is not perfect. Never said we were. But we have been there to help minister to those who hunger, thirst and need medical attention. More so because we have been blessed by God with a land that we have been led to in one way shape or another. I would ask those who cast stones at other countries etc to first examine their own country. Then if you can find no fault within your own country you have the right to cast a stone. Remember Jesus's response to the woman who was brought up to him caught in Adultry. They wanted Jesus to judge her and therefore give them the right of judgment. She was accused and Jesus just drew in the dust until He finally said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone>\." After a while her accusers left and Jesus looked at her and said, "Woman where are your accusers? " For they had given up baiting Jesus with her. And then He told her to go and sin no more. If more of us were willing not to be judgmental and accuse others then maybe just maybe we can understand the salvation of forgiveness in the context it is to be taken in.

I don't mean to make America out to be bad or nothing. I actually love Ameica and sad at the state America has fallen to and it seems to be only getting worse with the type of politicians we elect. I believe America has been a good country and a light and hope to many countries, but that seems to be changing fast. I think Babylon was much like America that was rich with goods and blessed many people but over time became corrupt and evil. Much like the harlot in Rev 17, America is become a whore to other nations and the light she once had is no more or quickly going out. Maybe this is why the nations mourned for her loss so greatly.