The Pre-trib Fallacy

[Trinity]

and they(angels) shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That is talking about the trib saints. Angels do not rapture the church, God does.

1 Corinthians 6

14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.

With trying to pove your theory with that verse you said "Angels rapture the Church."

You are getting CONFUSED.

[gypc]

1 Cor15:51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Why is this whole thing so hard to understand? It's gonna happen at the LAST trumpet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gypc]

Greetings GypC,

Dad Ernie, I'm in agreement with ya!

Thank you. I "glanced" at your site and probably agree with all of it.

Hey Dad Ernie, that site isn't mine. It's to well done for something I might do..hee hee.

Anyway, yes this is a very serious issue and with so much false doctrine floating around, we really got test everything.

In his love,

Brian

[CarolineS]

Hi Dad Ernie,

I agree with you and I think you have presented your case very well in this thread and others. The pre-trib doctine is false and I agree that it is a deceptive and dangerous doctrine.

All one has to do is read Matt. 24. It gives a complete overview of the 2nd coming of Jesus, in His own words. I don't see how anyone would argue with that.

I used to be a pre-trib. believer also, until I studied the Word for myself. The post-trib., pre-wrath doctrine is the only one that makes sense and is fully supported by scripture. The problem with pre-trib believers is that they are already under a great deception and they don't even see it. They will not be prepared for the tribulation or the great tribulation that is coming.

There has been persecution of followers of Christ since he walked the earth. All the disciples were either crucified, beheaded for the name of Jesus. Persecution has been going on and will only intensify in the last days. I am not sure why some christians feel they are so "specia"l or "set apart" that they don't have to face tribulation or persecution. They will be secretly raptured out of here. Why are they so special? I don't get it at all.

We will all be here, and we have to be prepared. It will be a time of great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-and never to be equaled again.

My advice to the pre-trib. follower is read Matt. 24 and pray about it, pray that God will open your eyes and show you the truth. Don't be deceived.

In Christ,

CarolineS

[Trinity]

1 Cor15:51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Why is this whole thing so hard to understand? It's gonna happen at the LAST trumpet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This "thief in the night" image is the wedding night in the Jewish marriage tradition--an oft used type by Jesus. The groom puts down a deposit for his bride [hint--2Cor 5:5] and goes off to build a house [Jn 14:3]. As hormones might lead the groom to skimp a bit and cut corners, it is the Father who decides when the home is befitting of the family name [Mr 13:32]. Then, when the place is finished, the groom goes off to fetch his bride--who has been waiting all along. In Jewish tradition, this is generally done at night. Also a tradition is that the "best man" blows a Shofar on a nearby hill, only moments from the bride's chamber. This has two practical benefits: 1) it allows a moment--if just that--for the bride and her attendants to not be caught in an immodest state by a reveling wedding band, and 2) it awakes the village to the start of a week-long wild wedding party.

For the symbolic fulfillment of this, we are gaining much more than a Husband and a new home--leaving the old behind. What is left behind will be utterly destroyed and what lies ahead is beyond human comprehension. Let us not glance by this point, but consider it deeply.

So the last Trumpet doesn't mean the (7th trumpet)

[Guest LCPGUY]

1 Cor15:51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Why is this whole thing so hard to understand? It's gonna happen at the LAST trumpet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2 Peter 3:10-13 (NKJ) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

This "thief in the night" image is connotative of the wedding night in the Jewish marriage tradition--an oft used type by Jesus. The groom puts down a deposit for his bride [hint--2Cor 5:5] and goes off to build a house [Jn 14:3]. As hormones might lead the groom to skimp a bit and cut corners, it is the Father who decides when the home is befitting of the family name [Mr 13:32]. Then, when the place is finished, the groom goes off to fetch his bride--who has been waiting all along. In Jewish tradition, this is generally done at night. Also a tradition is that the "best man" blows a Shofar on a nearby hill, only moments from the bride's chamber. This has two practical benefits: 1) it allows a moment--if just that--for the bride and her attendants to not be caught in an immodest state by a reveling wedding band, and 2) it awakes the village to the start of a week-long wild wedding party.

For the symbolic fulfillment of this, we are gaining much more than a Husband and a new home--leaving the old behind. What is left behind will be utterly destroyed and what lies ahead is beyond human comprehension. Let us not glance by this point, but consider it deeply.

So the last Trumpet doesn't mean the (7th trumpet)

Right on Trinity!

You

[Yahsway]

okay, let me see if I understand. Tribulation and Wrath are the same thing? God is pouring out wrath and tribulation. So where does the antichrist fit into all this? I mean if all this is done by God for 7 years, who is persucuting the saints on earth? Is it God, or is it Antichrist?

Cause if the whole church is going to be gone, guess no one else will be coming into the kingdom after 7 years of this tribulation and wrath of God. Where does the antichrist come into his power and start persecuting the saints?

Is it the year before the 7 year trib? When All the disciples were dying for their faith in Yeshua, was this tribulation or was that wrath?

what im asking is this. Is the DAY OF THE LORD the wrath, His day of venegence?

Is the tribulation period Satans time on earth for 7 years to persecute the saints?

I believe they are two different things. God will pour

his wrath out on those who are persecuting his people.

Tribulation is what is coming upon the whole earth(mankind).The last trump is the 7th trump in Rev .

be blessed

[Trinity]

okay, let me see if I understand. Tribulation and Wrath are the same thing? God is pouring out wrath and tribulation. So where does the antichrist fit into all this? I mean if all this is done by God for 7 years, who is persucuting the saints on earth? Is it God, or is it Antichrist?

Cause if the whole church is going to be gone, guess no one else will be coming into the kingdom after 7 years of this tribulation and wrath of God. Where does the antichrist come into his power and start persecuting the saints?

Is it the year before the 7 year trib? When All the disciples were dying for their faith in Yeshua, was this tribulation or was that wrath?

what im asking is this. Is the DAY OF THE LORD the wrath, His day of venegence?

Is the tribulation period Satans time on earth for 7 years to persecute the saints?

I believe they are two different things. God will pour

his wrath out on those who are persecuting his people.

Tribulation is what is coming upon the whole earth(mankind).The last trump is the 7th trump in Rev .

be blessed

No, it happens at the same time, Satan persecutes the (TRIBULATION SAINTS) while God uses Plagues against the Earth such as Turning the water to blood, famine, earth quakes such as this would has never seen, God will have wormwood hit the earth that will make the rest of the water bad, and The reason we Satan will have so much Power is because God lets him.

Satan is getting his armies together to fight God, God is pouring out his Judments (Wrath) on those who follow Satan.

[serotta]

I'm just going to add one reply to this thread, because I am of the opinion that this just doesn't matter that much.

Dad Ernie you are correct in stating that the fact that Jesus will come again in glory is a vital part of the gospel. But it is THAT He will return, not HOW or WHEN. A pretty good argument, from scripture, can be made for both sides of this discussion, as evidenced by the entrenched stances on both sides. THere is absolutely nothing wrong with "hoping for the best, but planning for the worst", nor is there anything wrong with just planning for the worst. True Christians will not be shaken if there is no rapture, we will just continue with a good idea of what we are in for. God bless all of you

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Serotta,

Dad Ernie you are correct in stating that the fact that Jesus will come again in glory is a vital part of the gospel. But it is THAT He will return, not HOW or WHEN. A pretty good argument, from scripture, can be made for both sides of this discussion, as evidenced by the entrenched stances on both sides. THere is absolutely nothing wrong with "hoping for the best, but planning for the worst", nor is there anything wrong with just planning for the worst. True Christians will not be shaken if there is no rapture, we will just continue with a good idea of what we are in for.

I might agree with you Serotta, if it were not for an abundance of scripture to the contrary. I do not see being an "ostrich" by sticking one's head in the sand and hoping the enemy will pass you by is what is taught in the scriptures. As well you know there is a plethora of prophetic materials in ALL 66 books, either through types or direct prophecies, even in EVERY book of the NT. Then we have such verses as these:

Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

and of course:

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The "Doctrine of imminency" as proposed by the pre-tribbers is in error. They say that "nothing more need be done" before the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Of course, this would have to apply to the early church saints as well as those of the very last days. It is true that "no one knows the day or the hour", but most certainly the "season" is preached, and for good reason as shown above in the verses I quoted. Please consider:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So WHAT THINGS are we to KNOW that begin to come to pass? Well there are several things:

1) The great Apostacy - (falling away from sound doctrine)

2) The man of sin

3) The restoration of Israel to Righteousness

4) Many False Prophets

5) Israel surrounded by all the worlds armies

6) THE False Prophet

7) Arise of a one world religious government

8) Every kind of sin and evil imaginable

9) A great deception that if those days were not cut short, not even the elect would survive.

If you want scriptures for any of these just say so and I will provide them.

So it is imperative the Christian be warned ahead of time that these things MUST come to pass and they better get off their fences of lukewarmness and get HOT FOR THE LORD.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie