The transfiguration

[AllforJesustheLord]

I have often thought, maybe those two are spiritually the two who are close to God on the right hand, and the left hand, that they are not the Moses, and Elijah of the Older Testament in representation of a spiritual understanding, I have thought they could be the ones from the Older Testament, but I have thought also that they may be spiritually know by there names because they are the two witnesses, which during that time were yet to be manifested.

[wordsower]

Elijah and Moses "appeared in their glory".

Dad,

Does your translation say that? Mine just says they appeared and then were overshadowed.

[ayin jade]

All interesting responses so far, looking forward to more thoughts on this.

[johnP]

Hello wordsower.

The transfiguration is a representation of Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets, all three were there until God spoke and then the law and the prophets disappeard and when the disciples looked up they saw no one but Jesus. He stands alone, fulfilling the law and the prophets.

This sounds very promising.

Maybe Jesus was telling them what was to come by way of explanation. He revealed to them how He was to die for sin. Matt 13:17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Just as He later explained to the two disciples on the road, Lk 24:32 They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"

That might have been what Jesus was doing. Letting two of His friends know at last.

.

johnp

[johnP]

Dad Ernie.

I don't intend to be rude. It is the last thing on my mind. We both have our beliefs and they conflict. I accept that. Let us find the mind of God together please.

I asked you, 'Then you are saying that Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus?'

Your reply, if you will forgive me for saying, seems to hinge on a knowledge of somewhere called 'outside time'.

Once you realize that God and the "spiritual realm" is outside of TIME...

Can I read it from the scriptures?

If there is something else outside our time line, somewhere where the saints have been glorified, and God can just pop them into this reality whenever He feels like it this passage does not prove it.

Have I understood you correctly?

Remember God has stopped the sun and also moved it forward, indicating that TIME was being manipulated by God. He IS the creator of it.

You say He stopped the sun and moved it forward and that proves He manipulated time.

How do you know how He did it? It indicates whatever you want it to indicate does it not? If the sun stopped moving across the sky it would indicate to me that the earth had stopped spinning.

Where does He say He created time? He did not create all there is did He? His love? His Justice? His light? His life? Show me where He created time and I cede this point. I am out on a limb here. There are 721 references to time in the NIV and I'm not checking them all. So I can't say for sure!

I have made the assumption that you say God can move about in time in this 'outside time' place. If He can do this then He has a problem doesn't He? Somewhere along this time line Jesus is still on the cross isn't He?

It is best, and not contradicted by scripture, that the past has gone and the future is yet to be, for us and for God. This is reality. I think.

johnp

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings JohnP,

Thank you for your willingness to look at these issues without any rancor. I am always happy to discuss my beliefs, and often are willing just to "agree to disagree", but here are my responses to your questions:

First:

Luke 9:30-31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

1391 doxa {dox'-ah}

from the base of 1380; TDNT - 2:233,178; n f

AV - glory 145, glorious 10, honour 6, praise 4, dignity 2,

worship 1; 168

1) opinion, judgment, view

2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone

2a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting

in praise, honour, and glory

3) splendour, brightness

3a) of the moon, sun, stars

3b) magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace

3c) majesty

3c1) a thing belonging to God

3c1) the kingly majesty which belongs to Him as supreme

ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute

perfection of the deity

3c2) a thing belonging to Christ

3c2a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah

3c2b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal

excellency of Christ; the majesty

3c3) of the angels

3c3a) as apparent in their exterior brightness

4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state

4a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which

Christ was raised after He had achieved his work on earth

4b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is

appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter

after their Saviour's return from heaven

Other verses containing this word:

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

1 Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1 Cor 15:40-41 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

The point is that we cannot transition from earth to heaven unless we die or are changed to be like Jesus. 1 Cor 15 is critical in understanding this. If Elijah & Enoch went to HEAVEN, then they absolutely were "changed", even as we shall be changed at the resurrection/rapture.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Okay, as for TIME:

We need to look at two aspects of it. 1) What is the relationship of God to TIME 2) Is TIME a created thing or has it always existed?

1) In the following verses, we see that God is ETERNAL, without beginning or end, everlasting. Everything seen by God is as a giant panorama laid out before Him. He SEES the beginning from the end. He is all-encompassing without being encompassed by anything but His own character. Not even time is a restriction to him.

Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

2) TIME only has reference to THIS creation:

There was a beginning:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And there is an end:

Isaiah 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Here is the first reference to time (other than the beginning):

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

This is repeated 6 times for each of the first 6 days.

I have developed a theorum of TIME, that is different from what scientists conclude, but I believe it is solely based upon the fact that God created TIME:

Time = the interval between any two separate physical events.

Pretty simple isn't it, but now you can apply that to a nanosecond, a day, a week, a year or for all creation. TIME is a relationship between PHYSICAL EVENTS.

So let's take a look at a story:

Daniel 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

Daniel 10:12-13 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Who was this "Prince of Persia" who withstood Gabriel for 3 weeks until Michael the Archangel interceded to allow Gabriel to continue on his way?

Notice that Gabriel was sent on the very first day of Daniel's prayers.

Have you ever wondered when Satan Fell from the heavens to the earth? Let's see, here is the beginning and ending of Satan:

Ezekiel 28:13-19 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

We know from Job that Satan both visited the earth and had access to the throne room of God:

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Now consider:

Luke 10:17-18 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan, even as all the angels live in the realm of the "spiritual". TIME is irrelevent to them, only the fact that God moves TIME forward on this earth, all of God's CREATION must obey this TIME "law". Everything MUST happen in the TIME God has set for it by his foreknowledge.

To get back to Daniel, God KNEW that Gabriel would be held up by the Prince of Persia, what was the purpose of ALLOWING the 21 days Daniel was in sackcloth praying? Well, I know why - it was for Daniel's benefit, not God's. It was also for OUR benefit, not God's. We are to be persistent in our prayers, WE NEED TO KNOW WHAT WE WANT. But I digress.

My point remains, God is NOT limited to any part of His creation, including TIME, but uses it to record events on this earth so that WE can relate, because WE are a part of it. We can't FATHOM eternity past or eternity future, THEREFORE, God created TIME.

Some more verses regarding TIME in relation to the SUN:

Joshua 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Job 9:7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

Psalms 74:16-17 The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun. 17 Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.

Isaiah 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

As you can see, it is not just one or two verses upon which I rely, and there are many more that could be reckoned with, but I believe what I have selected here should be sufficient to conclude that God is NOT inside of TIME, He is NOT "bounded" by it, ONLY WE ARE.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[johnP]

Thanks Dad Ernie.

I'll look at this when my friend leaves.

I thought I'd just stick this in as a bit of info that he gave me.

MAL 4:4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

MAL 4:5 "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Seeing as they are mentioned together I thought it might be relevant.

johnp

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings John P,

I think the relationship between Moses and Elijah is sufficiently pronounced in the scriptures so that the Mal. verses you refer to is similar to what WordSower has brought up, and with which I concur.

I see their REPRESENTATION - Moses - LAW, Elijah - PROPHET are the significant things, and not so much the individual.

JB had the "spirit of Elijah", ALSO Jesus was saying that He was GREATER THAN MOSES, and yet JB was less than the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven, which might refer to any of us or to Jesus Himself as being subordinate to the Father.

Moses (THE LAW) is important today because it CONVICTS. Elijah (THE PROPHET) is important because it reveals God's POWER to overcome the enemy and sin. Together, you might say, that these are the TWO WITNESSES that will be in the last days of Great Tribulation. Both the LAW and the POWER will be demonstrated by all TRUE Christians in those days.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ServingHim]

Does your translation say that? Mine just says they appeared and then were overshadowed.

my translation says this:

3 [5] Moses and Elijah represent respectively law and prophecy in the Old Testament and are linked to Matthew. Sinai; cf Exodus 19:16-20:17; 1 Kings 19:2, 8-14. They now appear with Jesus as witnesses to the fulfillment of the law and the prophets taking place in the person of Jesus as he appears in glory.

4 [7] A cloud came, casting a shadow over them: even the disciples enter into the mystery of his glorification. In the Old Testament the cloud covered the meeting tent, indicating the Lord's presence in the midst of his people (Exodus 40:34-35) and came to rest upon the temple in Jerusalem at the time of its dedication (1 Kings 8:10).

5 [9-13] At the transfiguration of Jesus his disciples had seen Elijah. They were perplexed because, according to the rabbinical interpretation of Malachi 3:23-24, Elijah was to come first. Jesus' response shows that Elijah has come, in the person of John the Baptist, to prepare for the day of the Lord. Jesus must suffer greatly and be treated with contempt (Mark 9:12) like the Baptist (Mark 9:13); cf Mark 6:17-29.

[Guest LCPGUY]

I used to think the two witnesses were Elijah and Enoch, but since these two people will be Jews, that leaves Enoch out the picture. So I guess I vote for Elijah and Moses now that I think about it more.

I have heard some people say Elijah and the apostle John. They point out that there is no record of John