1 cor 11 (the hair issue)

[Guest Butero]

By the way, who else recognizes this?

Others

We have discussed two topics in this thread, both that restrict men and women. In the case of hair, men must have short hair. In the case of clothing, men are forbidden to wear dresses, bras, anything that pertains to a woman. It cuts both ways, so these "others" are full of bull.

[nebula]

And I can just see the men crying for not being allowed to wear bras and skirts!

[Guest LadyC]

if you really think these "others" that recognize it are just bull, then you really are blind, butero. i normally don't even address you in these. in fact i usually don't even bother to un-ignore your posts, but for some reason i wanted to see what you said to nebula, and she didn't quote you.

what others? every other person in this thread besides exrockstar can recognize it. you denegrate women and do it in the name of Jesus. you spit off false doctrines while accusing others of doing so. i got news for ya... gloria vanderbilt jeans do not pertain to men, they pertain to women. i'd like to see you wear some GV jeans. you wouldn't dare, because you KNOW they are women's jeans. and your whole line of garbage about hair length is also garbage. you just finished saying men MUST have short hair, but have yet to give a satisfactory answer as to why men who took a nazarite vow were required NOT to... while they were close to God.

[Guest Butero]

I have lost track of all the personal attacks leveled at me for simply voicing an opinion. You see, there are some that can't handle it when anyone dares to take a position contrary to the one they hold. They must have people patting their back, and tickling their ears. They have to have everyone's approval for everything they do. Here is what the Bible says.

Matthew 5:11,12

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

I have told this before, but I am going to repeat it here. Sometime back, my wife and I were at a revival meeting. The minister was a prophet by the name of Richard Hall. He told everyone to begin walking around the room. Everyone was going in the same direction, and he told us to stop following each other. Only two people in the room did as he said, my wife and myself. The prophecy was that we would not follow the way of everyone else, but would go in the opposite direction. At the time, I had no idea just how that would effect our lives, but it has in profound ways. I am able to see the evil others are blinded to. I am able to see how this wicked society has effected not only others, but even myself.

God is wanting us to put away the evil, and while I still have a ways to go, I do not go around attacking those who call me to come up higher. I appreciate them. On the other hand, everyone else attacks the few Godly ministers that are left. They call them names like legalistic. They lift up the bad and attack the good. While everyone else is moving forward down the broad road to destruction, I find myself being called to turn and go the other way. It is a tough place to be in, but that is my lot in life. At times, I feel it would be easier to go around blinded to the wrong, and happy go lucky, thinking all Christianity is about is "freedom in Christ" to do whatever I want and eternally secure, regardless of what I do, but I know that is a lie.

We are just beginning a new year, and while God is telling me to put things away, and follow scripture more closely, everyone else is attacking God's laws, and telling everyone we don't need to be concerned with such things. People believe that they can do whatever they please, and be raptured out of this world before the tribulation period, when the Bible states clearly that those who are not watching and waiting faithfully won't go. They will be left behind, just as the 5 virgins were left because the oil in their lamps had run out. The easiest thing in the world would be to go along with the crowd, but I can't do that. Not when I know the crowd is heading for destruction.

Matthew 7:13,14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

As I mentioned before, the Bible tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I am convinced in my heart that the way being preached by Shiloh357, LadyC, Nebula, etc. is not right. I am not judging the eternal destination of anyone, but I know a false message when I hear one. For whatever it is worth, I suggest you take time to pray and seek God as to whether or not the road you are on is the right one? If it is, keep on walking down it. It is your soul. If it is not, change roads. Look around and see who everyone is running to and lifting up, and who is being attacked. I have had people make the accusation that I have no respect for women, that I am a hick, stupid, prideful, a caveman and that I started out with a pre-conceived position on clean and unclean foods, and created a doctrine to back up my position. Now I am being accused by Nebula and "others" of placing restrictions on women and not men. I defy anyone to prove that blatantly false claim. It is one thing to believe that is the case, but to make such an accusation with no proof, based on pure speculation, is to bear false witness. Only one person has been honest enough to look at things objectively and say that the scripture in 1 Corinthians 11 does mean a man's hair should be short and a woman's hair should be long, and he was attacked by the false teachers for doing so. He didn't attack anyone, just stated an opinion, but heaven forbid anyone have an opinion that differed from theirs! They couldn't allow that to stand, so he had to be ridiculed as well.

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saiith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

All of my positions would have been main stream 60 years ago, especially in conservative churches. God is telling me we need to turn back and go in the opposite direction, or we are going to follow the majority into the ditch. He is telling me we need to be sanctified, and come out from the world and be separate. He has been patient, and given us space to repent, myself included, but that window of opportunity is running out. If you want to be more concerned with what you can get away with than trying to make sure you are doing your very best to live a life pleasing to God, that is your business. I was just in a thread about tithing, and one person stated she would rather tithe, and do more than she had to, than have God unhappy with her at the judgement. She would rather have him say she went beyond what he expected, and that is the attitude we need to have.

In this thread, we started out talking about a non-salvation issue, hair length. Even though it won't keep us out of heaven to disobey Paul's teachings, it may effect our prayers, and it does show the world we are in submission to our head or in rebellion. I would rather show the world I am in subjection to Jesus, than show them I am in rebellion and doing my own thing. I have no problem discerning long from short. If you are determined there is no way to follow the scriptures in this passage, that is between you and the Lord.

[Guest Butero]

if you really think these "others" that recognize it are just bull, then you really are blind, butero. i normally don't even address you in these. in fact i usually don't even bother to un-ignore your posts, but for some reason i wanted to see what you said to nebula, and she didn't quote you.

what others? every other person in this thread besides exrockstar can recognize it. you denegrate women and do it in the name of Jesus. you spit off false doctrines while accusing others of doing so. i got news for ya... gloria vanderbilt jeans do not pertain to men, they pertain to women. i'd like to see you wear some GV jeans. you wouldn't dare, because you KNOW they are women's jeans. and your whole line of garbage about hair length is also garbage. you just finished saying men MUST have short hair, but have yet to give a satisfactory answer as to why men who took a nazarite vow were required NOT to... while they were close to God.

I don't have to answer it to your satisfaction LadyC. I did address those who took the Nazarite vow. I have yet to see anyone explain how a person can become unclean in the presence of a dead body in the New Testament? The Nazarite vow was an Old Testament practice. It doesn't apply today. The hair length issue is a New Testament practice. And yes, the "others" are full of bull. The accusation was that I put restrictions on women and not on men. Show me where I did that? This is called bearing false witness, and you are very good at that. Everyone in this thread did not accuse me of what Nebula accused me of. Disagreeing with my interpretation of this passage is not agreeing with that blatantly false accusation.

By the way, you took a position in the past that it was ok for women to wear their husband's jeans if you could tell they were still a woman. I had a female member of WB send me a message after that post of yours. She was on the fence on the issue, but didn't agree with your position. As a matter of fact, several others let me know they didn't agree with you. That position is not in the main stream either. You are just on the other end of the spectrum.

[anitarose]

Forgive me...but I have to speak here...

I have been long convinced that women need to cover their heads in church services. Why? Because I believe God told me this. For a very long time I have had very short hair---so much so that last year, I was joking around with people in my congregation and told them that I met up with an Army recruiter. My hair is now almost shoulder length, but I still feel led by God to cover my head in the service, for the simple act of worship to my King.

In this, as in other threads where I have expressed the opinion, I will state the same: I'm going to do it anyway. I'm not taking chances. I would rather do it now and have YHWH tell me I was wrong when I get to heaven than to NOT do it and have Him tell me I should have been in the first place. No harm, no foul.

Thank you all for allowing me to express my opinion.

a.

[Guest Butero]

And I can just see the men crying for not being allowed to wear bras and skirts!

Actually, there are some men that would like to wear bras and skirts. Ever heard of Ed Wood? Just because men aren't as eager to dress like women as women are wanting to dress like men doesn't mean they aren't restricted on their behavior.

[Guest Butero]

Forgive me...but I have to speak here...

I have been long convinced that women need to cover their heads in church services. Why? Because I believe God told me this. For a very long time I have had very short hair---so much so that last year, I was joking around with people in my congregation and told them that I met up with an Army recruiter. My hair is now almost shoulder length, but I still feel led by God to cover my head in the service, for the simple act of worship to my King.

In this, as in other threads where I have expressed the opinion, I will state the same: I'm going to do it anyway. I'm not taking chances. I would rather do it now and have YHWH tell me I was wrong when I get to heaven than to NOT do it and have Him tell me I should have been in the first place. No harm, no foul.

Thank you all for allowing me to express my opinion.

a.

I feel convicted anytime I am praying if my hair is starting to get shaggy. That is why I have been getting crew cuts of late.

[anitarose]

Forgive me...but I have to speak here...

I have been long convinced that women need to cover their heads in church services. Why? Because I believe God told me this. For a very long time I have had very short hair---so much so that last year, I was joking around with people in my congregation and told them that I met up with an Army recruiter. My hair is now almost shoulder length, but I still feel led by God to cover my head in the service, for the simple act of worship to my King.

In this, as in other threads where I have expressed the opinion, I will state the same: I'm going to do it anyway. I'm not taking chances. I would rather do it now and have YHWH tell me I was wrong when I get to heaven than to NOT do it and have Him tell me I should have been in the first place. No harm, no foul.

Thank you all for allowing me to express my opinion.

a.

I feel convicted anytime I am praying if my hair is starting to get shaggy. That is why I have been getting crew cuts of late.

That's why I addressed the WOMEN issue...

The covering, as I understand it (and I might understand it differently than most) is that men shouldn't have long hair (v. 14) but a woman having long hair is her "glory" (v. 15); however, this as like everything else Paul preaches, shouldn't be a source of contention to anyone (v. 16). If the man wants long hair, by all means. If the woman wants short hair, by all means---it depends on the person. I only know what God has spoken to me personally; that is, whether I have long or short hair, I am to cover it in worship to the ONE who gives me life, in a service.

Paul's opinion here is what is given; verses 5 & 6 get my attention because of the historical significance. If a woman had what Paul called "shorn hair", she was most likely a prostitute.

There have been times where I have wanted to shave MY head...but God as well as others have always talked me out of it. I would call it "pulling a Britney"....

Anyway, that's my opinion.

a.

[exrockstar]

I don't have to answer it to your satisfaction LadyC. I did address those who took the Nazarite vow. I have yet to see anyone explain how a person can become unclean in the presence of a dead body in the New Testament? The Nazarite vow was an Old Testament practice. It doesn't apply today. The hair length issue is a New Testament practice. And yes, the "others" are full of bull. The accusation was that I put restrictions on women and not on men. Show me where I did that? This is called bearing false witness, and you are very good at that. Everyone in this thread did not accuse me of what Nebula accused me of. Disagreeing with my interpretation of this passage is not agreeing with that blatantly false accusation.

By the way, you took a position in the past that it was ok for women to wear their husband's jeans if you could tell they were still a woman. I had a female member of WB send me a message after that post of yours. She was on the fence on the issue, but didn't agree with your position. As a matter of fact, several others let me know they didn't agree with you. That position is not in the main stream either. You are just on the other end of the spectrum.

I asked in an earlier post if anyone had any scripture in the Old Testament where it is socially accepted for a man to have long hair and none was given. The Nazarite vow is a vow. In these hair thread there isn't any vow taken. We are talking about socially accepting it and people (here) are for it. In the Nazarite vow the father or husband can annul his daughters or wife's Nazarite vow. The Lord forgives HER and not the man that called it off (Numbers 30:6). Pretty barbaric isn't it?

Then I read about prostitues shaving their heads. A great deal of the Corinthian church was greek. Prositution was embraced by the greeks and taxed. If I remember correctly; long hair meant power and shaved head meant slavery. As a matter of fact greek women embraced long hair and broiding it. Man has been the same since the beginning of time so I think women lured men in with their beauty. They were competing against other women to make money. It does not make sense for them to shave their heads. Which man would pay good money for a bald headed prostitute? Prostituion in greek society was big business. So I would dismiss the theory that female prostitutes shaved their heads. Shaved heads were more for slaves. I would entertain the fact that some women were sold as slaves so they would shave their heads to attend the fields. We know women attended the fields because there were festivals such as Haloa and The Thesmophoria where ALL women would attend (i believe these festivals ran up until the downfall of the greek empire). We know that Corinth was a place where traffic and trade was what it was known for so women would be brought in as prisoners from other wars. I would be more open to think that Paul would tell women that shaving their heads was unnatural (v14-15). They are removing their glory (v15).

man is the glory of God (v7)

woman is the glory is man (v7)

hair is the glory of woman (v15)

for man to have long hair is a disgrace because long hair is the glory of the woman not the man (v14)