Who is Jesus?

[Guest]

My LORD And My God

Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.

My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever. Psalms 73:25-26

____________

Right. But anyone could have made up a story about how the Earth/Universe came to be. Plenty did. And I have no doubt that there are historically factual information in the Bible, I would expect there to be, but that doesn't mean all of it is true. The prophecies involving Jesus take faith to believe in as there is no evidence of them out of the Bible. I genuinely, at this point, don't feel anything toward the religion that would lead me to have faith in it.....

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

____________

When I was speaking about the imperfections of the design, I wasn't speaking of immoral behavior. I was talking specifically about the imperfections in the physical design of humans and animals....

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. Ecclesiastes 3:11

____________

I understand. But if anything is going to lead me to Christ, the threat of Hell is not going to be it. It probably wouldn't make me a very good Christian if it did....

No Doubt

And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. Revelation 9:6

Simple Respect For The LORD Jesus Will Come Too Late

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:14-17

But For Some The Joy Of His Salvation Is Even Now Their's To Share

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Love, Joe

[boaries]

Yes good stuff!!

[enoob57]

Right. But anyone could have made up a story about how the Earth/Universe came to be. Plenty did. And I have no doubt that there are historically factual information in the Bible, I would expect there to be, but that doesn't mean all of it is true. The prophecies involving Jesus take faith to believe in as there is no evidence of them out of the Bible. I genuinely, at this point, don't feel anything toward the religion that would lead me to have faith in it.

I understand! Seeing how everything in all directions of thought are faith based upon something what do you choose to believe?

When I was speaking about the imperfections of the design, I wasn't speaking of immoral behavior. I was talking specifically about the imperfections in the physical design of humans and animals.

It is the behavior of sin to destroy... The physical realities since the flood and loss of the canopy of water around the earth the sun rays themselves are harmful. The curse of God against the sin effected all things so that God has said through His Son Paul

Rom 8:18-25

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

NKJV

I am throughly versed in sins and all of them lead to death... Physical impairment is the fruit along the way that we see before the death... again I reiterate to you if you wish to know life you must search for it outside of death... Evidence can be always a seeking ---> a good place to start ;it is a good well and the Water of Life flows always in Truth http://www.allaboutj...f-jesus-faq.htm Love Steven

[OneLight]

I have to ask the obvious, Cato. Do you really think you're so important that the Creator owes you explanations for His work? That is some major arrogance there. You are but one of His creations and, while important to Him, you're no different than any of the other 6 billion plus souls on earth.

It is difficult to conceive of any way that I might be owed anything by an entity that I do not think exists. I'm also not a 'creation'.

May I ask, what do you consider yourself?

A member of the species homo sapiens sapiens; a human being.

A little dodge, but that's OK. Let me rephrase the question. If you were not created, what were you? How do you believe life began?

[808state]

I understand! Seeing how everything in all directions of thought are faith based upon something what do you choose to believe?

I suppose I believe that this life is pretty much it. I wouldn't state that as a fact though. And I can't say I willingly chose that belief.

It is the behavior of sin to destroy... The physical realities since the flood and loss of the canopy of water around the earth the sun rays themselves are harmful. The curse of God against the sin effected all things so that God has said through His Son Paul

Rom 8:18-25

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

NKJV

I am throughly versed in sins and all of them lead to death... Physical impairment is the fruit along the way that we see before the death... again I reiterate to you if you wish to know life you must search for it outside of death... Evidence can be always a seeking ---> a good place to start ;it is a good well and the Water of Life flows always in Truth http://www.allaboutj...f-jesus-faq.htm Love Steven

Would this explain animals that have unnecessary (vestigial) characteristics?

And thank you for the link. I'll check it out.

[enoob57]

Not at all; I do YOU a disservice. I should be weeping instead. You are so pitiable.

What a response. A pity; I had thought you to be intelligent and capable of defending and supporting your point of view. Instead you resort to insult (to which I am immune, by the way).

We who have the presence of God Within us have this testimony as well... We are told our Prayers to God are heard... We have experienced those Prayers answered to the mathematical probability the He Is and that He rewards faith with reality unseen

Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

NKJV

It is not with theory we speak to you... it is with fact of after receiving Him in faith... Love Steven

Heb 11:1-2

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

NKJV

Because God ... Being Who He Is... there is no other way to Him ... even though in your own godness you require it... It also stands as a witness to us who believe and why we sorrow

Luke 16:19-31

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

NKJV

This is spoken by Him who you deny so that when you get there you will know what to expect.... Love Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 09 February 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

So, then why would they put their lives on the line for a story they made up and they knew was a basically a fabrication??? Why would they on the one hand, after Jesus' crucifixion, paralyzed with fear dreading the possibility that they were going to be hunted down and killed just like Jesus and then suddenly being willing to bodly face imprisonment, torture, death, etc. for a lie they perpetrated???

There has to be a more logical explanation for the radical change.

Well, if they made up or exaggerated Jesus's story, what would stop them from making up or exaggerating their own?

The fact that they were paralyzed with fear of sharing Jesus' fate. That seems to be the point you are missing here.

The gospel stories do not paint a rosy picture of the disciples. They were selfish, arrogant, fickle, unloyal, thoughtless, faithless, quick to judge, one of them was a thief, they were quick tempered, yet cowardly when the chips were down. If they were making up their own stories about themselves, it seems unlikely that they would protray themselves in such a negative light. Those ususally making up such stories typically protay themselves as the most faithful and epitome of piety and holiness. The extensive self-deprecating information about the disciples argues agasint them making up stories.

The Bible tells us that the LAST thing they would have wanted to do was to be seen preaching about Jesus. It would appear that you are willing to reach for any angle, no matter how absurd or counter-intuitive to human nature in order to find a way around the facts that the text provides.

shiloh357, on 09 February 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

Furthermore, if they were making stories up, how come no one, among their contemporaries were able to debunk or refute their claims? Jesus was pretty popular among the regular people and was a very public figure. It would be hard to make up a story that could not debunked by other witnesses who knew enough to contradict them.

If my friends and I claimed that we saw our other friend, let's call him Joe, flying without the aid of anything, who could prove that we didn't see that?

You are forgetting something, thought. The disciples could have been easily debunked by the enemies of Jesus simply producing the body. The enemies of Jesus knew where He was buried. Had the disciples been lying, all that would have needed to be done was for them to produce the body.

In the same way, all that needs to be done in the case of your friend Joe, is for him to fly in your presence. The evidence of the resurrection can be seen the radical change in the lives of the disciples. ONLY the resurrection could account for that. Only their eyewitness experience for 40 days of encoutering Jesus can account for why they were transformed in such an immediate and radical manner and why the torture and death they previously feared suddenlly became a welcomed badge of honor.

shiloh357, on 09 February 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

The problem is that they don't. When do lunatics or liars do that??? Lunatics make inane babblings and nonsensical statements that have no rational basis. Liars are just that. They are liars. Jesus emphasied honesty and truth. Liars don't do that. Truth is inimical to their character.

First, how are we defining "lunatic"? You can be mentally unstable, and keep a certain amount of composure. You can certainly be capable of repeating other people's ideas.

Lunatics are not simply mentally unstable people. They are people who are considered radically and extremely eccentric and many times are reckless in their behavior. They are insane to the point that they are not held responsible for their actions in a court of law. They are usually people we lock up. That is how the word "lunatic" is used in the normal english usage of the term.

As far as liars go, most people have lied at some point in their life, and most people would say that lying is wrong. I mean look at politicians. It's not unbelievable that someone would preach one thing and then do the opposite.

I "liar" is a person who lies habitually. They would lie to you even if the truth sounded better. They are people who lie consistently to the point that they cannot be trusted.

Neither of those terms can be appllied to Jesus, because unlike a liar, Jesus lived out His words. He demonstrated regularly the truth of His teachings. Jesus was so transparently honest, the Sanhedrin had to hire false witnesses at His trial in order to find something to accuse Him of. Jesus did not teach in secret places. He was in the open air, He was at the temple and other population centers. Liars and decievers prefer to live in the hidden corners where they keep their lies hidden.

Jesus, far from being a lunatic, attracted people, even little children to Him. Jesus was not crazy and that is evidenced by the crowds that followed Him and were amazed at His teachings and the fact that His knowledge bested the most educated men in Jerusalem. You simply cannot point to anywhere in the text that shows Jesus behaving like a lunatic.

Just because people can't disprove something, it doesn't make it a fact. That's a logical fallacy. If that were the case, then it would be a fact that my friend, "Joe", can fly.

As I stated before, If Jesus' death were refutable, it would have been refuted by the contemporary enemies of Jesus and done so quite easily. All they needed to do was produce the body of Jesus from His grave. That would have been the end of Christianity.

shiloh357, on 09 February 2011 - 07:56 PM, said:

That assertion that they are in the same boat only demonstrates that you have not done any really serious comparison. The available data simply does not support that assertion. Why believe something that is demonstratably false? Why believe something just to believe it?

Could you point me in the direction of this available data?

All one needs to do is compare the life of Jesus with the Greek descriptions of their gods. Jesus offers forgiveness, redemption and expresses His everlasting love for mankind. The gods of pagans do not love mankind, and in fact, tend to resent humans.

Jesus is not plagued with human character flaws. The gods of the pagans are envious, petty, dishonest, sexually immoral,etc.

The difference between Jesus and the pagan gods is that the pagans had influence in limited spheres. For example, a pagan god who could control the weather, had no control over people. The deity that had power over fire could not heal. Furthermore, pagan gods were really nothing but amplified versions of humanity. They were sinful, evil, conniving, fickle, untrustworty and violent, but in more extreme ways.

Jesus is the polar opposite of the pagan deities. Everything Jesus did was for others. Jesus never performed a miracle for His own benefit. He never took revenge on His enemies. Jesus loved His enemies and forgave them even for crucifying Him. Jesus never used His power for selfish purposes and everthing He did was redemptive in scope. Jesus' presence on the earth was the product of love for mankind. In every way, Jesus' life represents the opposites of the pagan gods.

It is apparent that you are not all studied in either the Bible or the pagan gods. You are speaking of what you know nothing about. It would be helpful to you if you actually study the Bible before presuming that you are competent to find fault with it.

Again, we don't know that their eyewitness testimonies actually happened the way they said they happened.

So demonstrate why we should not believe them. Can you demonstrate why we should see them as lacking trustworthiness???

[enoob57]

I suppose I believe that this life is pretty much it. I wouldn't state that as a fact though. And I can't say I willingly chose that belief.

I can't begin to tell you of the sorrows that fill my heart to hear of your hopeless estate!!! The horrid things you witness and the belief that is as good as it gets.... do you have an idea or ideal of betterment? If your answer is yes may I ask to what end? Do you seek pleasure for yourself as motivation to obtain anything? I am sorry! I am just curios about you! I was raised in the knowledge of Christ and I have always had hope in Him... I became vile when I thought I could do somethings in my own strength with the exclusion of Him and give Him trinkets of my life for Him to be Lord over... that I believe to the major portion of religion today! As I participated in sins they grew exceedingly strong and demanding of me... I can tell you that I know of at least 7 miracles were performed to continue life in me- some were pretty evident even to those around me especially my dad on earth... I believe His Godly prayers is what motivated the Lord to keep me alive for I cannot imagine any other reason! I struggled with the reality knowing what Jesus had to go though because of my sins yet enjoying them after this knowledge I thought this applied-

Heb 10:26-27

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

NKJV

but if you notice the highlighted portion an adversary I was not but a misbehaving child I was... here is proof other than here

1 Cor 3:15

15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

NKJV

Once you believe that Jesus is who He says He is and what He has done He says this of Himself

Rev 3:20-22

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'"

NKJV

This is the witness of Christ through The Holy Spirit of this time we have but to invite Him into our hearts and at that very moment He creates in us a new heart one which He enters and dwells... That proportion of us then belongs to Him and this is what He says about that which is His

John 10:25-30

25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. ^{Here He was talking of His miracle they saw} 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

NKJV

Because His Word is true I testify before you as living proof I am one of these....

Would this explain animals that have unnecessary (vestigial) characteristics?

Knowing what we have now before us in creation does nothing but indicate a lessoning in gene pool, energy, entropy, morality, family values, etc. I would naturally assume that this lessoning would also be with our functioning physiology

[808state]

The fact that they were paralyzed with fear of sharing Jesus' fate. That seems to be the point you are missing here.

The gospel stories do not paint a rosy picture of the disciples. They were selfish, arrogant, fickle, unloyal, thoughtless, faithless, quick to judge, one of them was a thief, they were quick tempered, yet cowardly when the chips were down. If they were making up their own stories about themselves, it seems unlikely that they would protray themselves in such a negative light. Those ususally making up such stories typically protay themselves as the most faithful and epitome of piety and holiness. The extensive self-deprecating information about the disciples argues agasint them making up stories.

The Bible tells us that the LAST thing they would have wanted to do was to be seen preaching about Jesus. It would appear that you are willing to reach for any angle, no matter how absurd or counter-intuitive to human nature in order to find a way around the facts that the text provides.

Well, first, much of the New Testament was written anonymously, correct? Regardless, if they did flat out fabricate or exaggerate the stories, their motive doesn't have to be self-glorification. Like I said before, a likely reason could be to move society in a different direction with a new religion. The point of making themselves look bad could have been for the sake of representing the more negative aspects of human nature and to show how you could fight against those negative aspects of yourself with the teachings of the religion. They were demonstrations of what the religion could do for the masses. It was a selling point. If the everyone in the story was perfect, how could followers sympathize with them? And if they can't sympathize with them, how would these stories inspire change?

You are forgetting something, thought. The disciples could have been easily debunked by the enemies of Jesus simply producing the body. The enemies of Jesus knew where He was buried. Had the disciples been lying, all that would have needed to be done was for them to produce the body.

That's a good thought. There are many possibilities. Again, we don't know much about Jesus outside of the Bible. It could be that Jesus did not get himself a nice new tomb like it says in the Bible, but was thrown in the town garbage dump, which was typically where the executed were "laid to rest" in Ancient Rome. If that were the case, there's a good chance that no one would want to go looking/digging to find his body in that situation. Especially if they were Jewish, since they are not allowed to be near dead bodies without breaking ritual cleanliness. It could also be that they simply didn't care to. They could have thought that he was like any other Messiah claimant of the time, and didn't anticipate the influence he would have later on.

In the same way, all that needs to be done in the case of your friend Joe, is for him to fly in your presence. The evidence of the resurrection can be seen the radical change in the lives of the disciples. ONLY the resurrection could account for that. Only their eyewitness experience for 40 days of encoutering Jesus can account for why they were transformed in such an immediate and radical manner and why the torture and death they previously feared suddenlly became a welcomed badge of honor.

Well, like I said in my original post, Joe did fly in my presence. And my friends. We know what we saw. But Joe died. So, you're just gonna have to take our word for it.

Again, you're evidence only works if we assume that everything in the Bible is true.

Lunatics are not simply mentally unstable people. They are people who are considered radically and extremely eccentric and many times are reckless in their behavior. They are insane to the point that they are not held responsible for their actions in a court of law. They are usually people we lock up. That is how the word "lunatic" is used in the normal english usage of the term.

I "liar" is a person who lies habitually. They would lie to you even if the truth sounded better. They are people who lie consistently to the point that they cannot be trusted.

Ok. So let's say Jesus was neither a "lunatic" or a "habitual liar." Let's just say he lied about things to get people to believe he was the Messiah. It wouldn't have been the first time someone had successfully lied about being supernatural in some form.

Neither of those terms can be appllied to Jesus, because unlike a liar, Jesus lived out His words. He demonstrated regularly the truth of His teachings. Jesus was so transparently honest, the Sanhedrin had to hire false witnesses at His trial in order to find something to accuse Him of. Jesus did not teach in secret places. He was in the open air, He was at the temple and other population centers. Liars and decievers prefer to live in the hidden corners where they keep their lies hidden.

Jesus, far from being a lunatic, attracted people, even little children to Him. Jesus was not crazy and that is evidenced by the crowds that followed Him and were amazed at His teachings and the fact that His knowledge bested the most educated men in Jerusalem. You simply cannot point to anywhere in the text that shows Jesus behaving like a lunatic.

This is assuming that everything written about Jesus in the Bible is true.

All one needs to do is compare the life of Jesus with the Greek descriptions of their gods. Jesus offers forgiveness, redemption and expresses His everlasting love for mankind. The gods of pagans do not love mankind, and in fact, tend to resent humans.

Jesus is not plagued with human character flaws. The gods of the pagans are envious, petty, dishonest, sexually immoral,etc.

This works if one is already a Christian, but this "available data" isn't going to help me out much for reasons that have been repeated in this thread.

The difference between Jesus and the pagan gods is that the pagans had influence in limited spheres. For example, a pagan god who could control the weather, had no control over people. The deity that had power over fire could not heal. Furthermore, pagan gods were really nothing but amplified versions of humanity. They were sinful, evil, conniving, fickle, untrustworty and violent, but in more extreme ways.

Jesus is the polar opposite of the pagan deities. Everything Jesus did was for others. Jesus never performed a miracle for His own benefit. He never took revenge on His enemies. Jesus loved His enemies and forgave them even for crucifying Him. Jesus never used His power for selfish purposes and everthing He did was redemptive in scope. Jesus' presence on the earth was the product of love for mankind. In every way, Jesus' life represents the opposites of the pagan gods.

It is apparent that you are not all studied in either the Bible or the pagan gods. You are speaking of what you know nothing about. It would be helpful to you if you actually study the Bible before presuming that you are competent to find fault with it.

Again, you've misunderstood me. Like I said in my previous post, I was not comparing Jesus in general to Greek Gods in general. I specifically was referring to the claim that any of them were actually miracles workers. As far as I am currently concerned, none of them were, and in that regard, they are in the same boat. I was not speaking about what kind of character they had, or what kind of miracles they were preforming, I was only referring to the assertion that they performed any miracles at all.

So demonstrate why we should not believe them. Can you demonstrate why we should see them as lacking trustworthiness???

I can only speak for myself. I don't believe them because there is no evidence to their claims along with other issues I personally have with the Bible. When everything is cumulated, It seems very unlikely to me.

[Believer112]

The fact that they were paralyzed with fear of sharing Jesus' fate. That seems to be the point you are missing here.

The gospel stories do not paint a rosy picture of the disciples. They were selfish, arrogant, fickle, unloyal, thoughtless, faithless, quick to judge, one of them was a thief, they were quick tempered, yet cowardly when the chips were down. If they were making up their own stories about themselves, it seems unlikely that they would protray themselves in such a negative light. Those ususally making up such stories typically protay themselves as the most faithful and epitome of piety and holiness. The extensive self-deprecating information about the disciples argues agasint them making up stories.

The Bible tells us that the LAST thing they would have wanted to do was to be seen preaching about Jesus. It would appear that you are willing to reach for any angle, no matter how absurd or counter-intuitive to human nature in order to find a way around the facts that the text provides.

Well, first, much of the New Testament was written anonymously, correct? Regardless, if they did flat out fabricate or exaggerate the stories, their motive doesn't have to be self-glorification. Like I said before, a likely reason could be to move society in a different direction with a new religion. The point of making themselves look bad could have been for the sake of representing the more negative aspects of human nature and to show how you could fight against those negative aspects of yourself with the teachings of the religion. They were demonstrations of what the religion could do for the masses. It was a selling point. If the everyone in the story was perfect, how could followers sympathize with them? And if they can't sympathize with them, how would these stories inspire change?

You are forgetting something, thought. The disciples could have been easily debunked by the enemies of Jesus simply producing the body. The enemies of Jesus knew where He was buried. Had the disciples been lying, all that would have needed to be done was for them to produce the body.

That's a good thought. There are many possibilities. Again, we don't know much about Jesus outside of the Bible. It could be that Jesus did not get himself a nice new tomb like it says in the Bible, but was thrown in the town garbage dump, which was typically where the executed were "laid to rest" in Ancient Rome. If that were the case, there's a good chance that no one would want to go looking/digging to find his body in that situation. Especially if they were Jewish, since they are not allowed to be near dead bodies without breaking ritual cleanliness. It could also be that they simply didn't care to. They could have thought that he was like any other Messiah claimant of the time, and didn't anticipate the influence he would have later on.

In the same way, all that needs to be done in the case of your friend Joe, is for him to fly in your presence. The evidence of the resurrection can be seen the radical change in the lives of the disciples. ONLY the resurrection could account for that. Only their eyewitness experience for 40 days of encoutering Jesus can account for why they were transformed in such an immediate and radical manner and why the torture and death they previously feared suddenlly became a welcomed badge of honor.

Well, like I said in my original post, Joe did fly in my presence. And my friends. We know what we saw. But Joe died. So, you're just gonna have to take our word for it.

Again, you're evidence only works if we assume that everything in the Bible is true.

Lunatics are not simply mentally unstable people. They are people who are considered radically and extremely eccentric and many times are reckless in their behavior. They are insane to the point that they are not held responsible for their actions in a court of law. They are usually people we lock up. That is how the word "lunatic" is used in the normal english usage of the term.

I "liar" is a person who lies habitually. They would lie to you even if the truth sounded better. They are people who lie consistently to the point that they cannot be trusted.

Ok. So let's say Jesus was neither a "lunatic" or a "habitual liar." Let's just say he lied about things to get people to believe he was the Messiah. It wouldn't have been the first time someone had successfully lied about being supernatural in some form.

Neither of those terms can be appllied to Jesus, because unlike a liar, Jesus lived out His words. He demonstrated regularly the truth of His teachings. Jesus was so transparently honest, the Sanhedrin had to hire false witnesses at His trial in order to find something to accuse Him of. Jesus did not teach in secret places. He was in the open air, He was at the temple and other population centers. Liars and decievers prefer to live in the hidden corners where they keep their lies hidden.

Jesus, far from being a lunatic, attracted people, even little children to Him. Jesus was not crazy and that is evidenced by the crowds that followed Him and were amazed at His teachings and the fact that His knowledge bested the most educated men in Jerusalem. You simply cannot point to anywhere in the text that shows Jesus behaving like a lunatic.

This is assuming that everything written about Jesus in the Bible is true.

All one needs to do is compare the life of Jesus with the Greek descriptions of their gods. Jesus offers forgiveness, redemption and expresses His everlasting love for mankind. The gods of pagans do not love mankind, and in fact, tend to resent humans.

Jesus is not plagued with human character flaws. The gods of the pagans are envious, petty, dishonest, sexually immoral,etc.

This works if one is already a Christian, but this "available data" isn't going to help me out much for reasons that have been repeated in this thread.

The difference between Jesus and the pagan gods is that the pagans had influence in limited spheres. For example, a pagan god who could control the weather, had no control over people. The deity that had power over fire could not heal. Furthermore, pagan gods were really nothing but amplified versions of humanity. They were sinful, evil, conniving, fickle, untrustworty and violent, but in more extreme ways.

Jesus is the polar opposite of the pagan deities. Everything Jesus did was for others. Jesus never performed a miracle for His own benefit. He never took revenge on His enemies. Jesus loved His enemies and forgave them even for crucifying Him. Jesus never used His power for selfish purposes and everthing He did was redemptive in scope. Jesus' presence on the earth was the product of love for mankind. In every way, Jesus' life represents the opposites of the pagan gods.

It is apparent that you are not all studied in either the Bible or the pagan gods. You are speaking of what you know nothing about. It would be helpful to you if you actually study the Bible before presuming that you are competent to find fault with it.

Again, you've misunderstood me. Like I said in my previous post, I was not comparing Jesus in general to Greek Gods in general. I specifically was referring to the claim that any of them were actually miracles workers. As far as I am currently concerned, none of them were, and in that regard, they are in the same boat. I was not speaking about what kind of character they had, or what kind of miracles they were preforming, I was only referring to the assertion that they performed any miracles at all.

So demonstrate why we should not believe them. Can you demonstrate why we should see them as lacking trustworthiness???

I can only speak for myself. I don't believe them because there is no evidence to their claims along with other issues I personally have with the Bible. When everything is cumulated, It seems very unlikely to me.

Young Lady, I can see you have no desire to learn about Jesus. I've been curious why non believers come to a Christian forum to argue against what we believe? Most the non believers are not genuine when they say they desire to learn about God. You keep saying there is no evidence and really don't care to look on your own. Your hardened heart is keeping you from God. Weather you know it or not, the people here truly care about you and your eternal destiny. Here's info on the Gospels but you'll probably deny it's info because it's a Religious website.

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4225535/k.1274/The_Historical_Reliability_of_the_Gospels.htm