Free Will

[Big Steve]

Ok, the topic of our free will has been brought up alot lately, so I have a question.(of course, what's new)

God knows our hearts, our thoughts, what sins we have committed, and I've read He already knows our future sins as well.

If that is the case, aren't our actions already "pre-determined" to some extent, which would mean we are acting out what is already destined to happen? If He knows what we are going to do before we do it, doesn't that kind of take free will out of it?

Let me give an example that I thought about from the thread on whether you've ever thought you were God.

A nurse is in the operating room trying to save an accident victim's life. They are doing everything possible to save this person, and if it is God's will for that person to live, he will. If not, no matter what the team of doctors to, the person will die. That makes perfect sense to me, but here's where my question arises.

In the combat situation about myself I gave in that thread, I have someone in my rifle sights. I make a decision whether or not to pull the trigger. Now if it was God's will that the person in my sights is to die at that moment, then my decision on what to do was already pre-determined at that point, wasn't it?

And can I just add, this is a legitimate concern I have. I'm using the situation above because I thought it was a good example, I don't want this to turn into another thread about whether it is right or wrong to pull the trigger. That is just a reality of combat, and not my question here.

Thanks!

[alecia]

Ok, here is how I look at it..

God is above and beyond our dimension.. and has the ability to know every -thought- we have. Just as we can predict the weather, God can know what we will do before we do it.. except he is MUCH more accurate than weather forecasters. Perfectly accurate Id say.

But predicting the weather doesnt mean we control the weather.. it still acts out on its own accord.. but we know what it will do.

God can forecast what we will do because he knows our habits, and our very thoughts, even subconcious ones.. its like, how sometimes when you know somone very well, you can predict how they will act in a given situation.. but God knows us PERFECTLY, he knows every aspect of us, so even though we are free and independent, he can still predict what we will do.

Make sense?

And also.. with the guy in your sights.. even though you are pulling the trigger, which would be entirely up to you, after that bullet leaves the barrel its pretty much up to God if that person will live or not. If it was Gods will that person dies, God knows if you would shoot him or not, then God can decide to take his life with that bullet or not.. its out of your hands once youve made the decision. So Gods will AND free will can BOTH work together.

Edited September 8, 2004 by alecia

[Botz]

There is an important distinction between what G-d knows, what G-d allows and what G-d desires....and He has set in motion both physical laws...like gravity...sowing and reaping...life and death...Also spiritual laws like...grace,faith and salvation etc.

It is not always easy to convincingly give reasons why so many starve to death...or why so much harm is done in the name of religions...or why so many people are abused by other people.

1.Does G-d see these things?....Of course..Proverbs 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD. He examines all his paths.

Proverbs 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weighs the motives.

Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Isaiah 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

2.Does G-d allow these things?...Well yes...In the beginning He allowed Eve to be tempted and to be seduced by the serpent...and for Adam to partake...but freewill would not be freewill if the L-rd was there to wipe our little noses everytime we chose to sin...it is probably past working out precisely..because who knows the mind of G-d!

3.G-d has shown us what He desires...so we need to obey.

[tsth]

For what it's worth, there's an existing extensive discussion on free will in the Doctrinal section too.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Matthitjah]

Steve,

I see your dilemma.

Ask the Lord.

I will profer something though. Maybe to provoke thought? The Lord has said in His Word.

Jacob I have Loved but Esau I have hated from the womb.

Now the earth and everything in it belong to the Lord. There are vessels of honor and vessels of wrath in His House. All by Free will. :il: For the Lord is longsuffering that none should persih.

No one is created for destruction. Neither does your shooting them negate God's will. For mostly they have chosen their path and either in Gods Will and not subject to Wrath or outside of Gods will and Glorifying Him anyway. His Word is the dividing line.

Now this may sound confusing? It is to me as I write it.

God's Will does not negate Your Free will. Which brings us back to Esau and Jacob. Jacob was trickster and not much better than His brother by any standard. He stole his brothers birthright. Which was Jacobs anyway from the womb. Why? God is a discerner of mens hearts. Jacob's name changed to Israel. Just like Abram to Abraham. But Esau stayed Esau. Just a big hairy game hunting man. He did not change. So he remained Esua and God's Will passec him by. Yet he has Glorified God with His choice. A vessel of wrath an end to Gods means.

Our problem is that we see things in human terms and God is not human. How can He know and hate or Love us from birth? He knows the outcome of your life. He is omnipresent. He see's things differently than we do.

It is like when the Israelites entered the land. God told them to put every man, woman, and child to the Sword. At first glance it would seem this is not consistent with God's charecter? But is it really not consistent?

These things need prayer and much seeking. You my friend are on the right path.

Peace,

Dave

[J.C.]

There is an important distinction between what G-d knows, what G-d allows and what G-d desires....and He has set in motion both physical laws...like gravity...sowing and reaping...life and death...Also spiritual laws like...grace,faith and salvation etc.

It is not always easy to convincingly give reasons why so many starve to death...or why so much harm is done in the name of religions...or why so many people are abused by other people.

1.Does G-d see these things?....Of course..Proverbs 5:21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD. He examines all his paths.

Proverbs 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weighs the motives.

Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Isaiah 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

2.Does G-d allow these things?...Well yes...In the beginning He allowed Eve to be tempted and to be seduced by the serpent...and for Adam to partake...but freewill would not be freewill if the L-rd was there to wipe our little noses everytime we chose to sin...it is probably past working out precisely..because who knows the mind of G-d!

3.G-d has shown us what He desires...so we need to obey.

I haft to ask, I am new here and I was just wondering. Why do you spell God, G-d, and Lord, L-rd?

[Botz]

Hiya JC...Its something that many Orthodox Jews do because they do not want to take the L-rds name in vain...I have a number of Orthodox friends and write from time to time...so I adopted dropping the 'o' years ago...it is too confusing to alternate between the two....when I quote Scripture I do not try and change the way it is written as either way is fine by me.... Lord or L-rd...purely personal expediency.

[Guest CalvaryAloha]

I know I am new so I hope no one minds me sharing my thoughts here and there.

As for your question... It is impossible for us to fully understand the relationship between God

[J.C.]

Oh ok. I see. Thanks for the answer.

In Christ's Love,

J.C.

[Adstar]

If that is the case, aren't our actions already "pre-determined" to some extent, which would mean we are acting out what is already destined to happen? If He knows what we are going to do before we do it, doesn't that kind of take free will out of it?

God knows what you are going to do from His foreknowledge of all history. Not from him making something happen or making someone will to do this or that.

So yes God knows the future of everyone of us from the foundation of the world but we still have free will. Just because God knows what our free will choice will be before we make it, does not make our free will any less free.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days