2 Israels?

[ayin jade]

I can only keep quoting scripture till you are willing to believe the Bible:

Don't allow presupposition, pride, prejudice, or tradition cloud your understanding of the Word of God. It's right there in print.

Folks here believe the bible, the words of God, God breathed scripture. Folks are merely comparing your interpretation of the bible to the words of the bible itself. There your words fall short. Do not in your arrogance, pride, or prejudice judge those who do not agree with you as "not believing the bible." We are being berean, as praised by paul.

[Guest yod]

Don't allow presupposition, pride, prejudice, or tradition cloud your understanding of the Word of God. It's right there in print.

yea, I've read all that before....and say Amen!

But I asked a direct question because it is still unclear what point you *think* is being made. I can't tell if I agree yet.

Are you able to answer?

"Dead flies in the ointment of the apothocary causeth it to send forth a stinking savor....."

[JohnD]

I am not judging. I merely quote this consistent theme throughout the Bible.

The vehicle God created goes by several names. Israel. All Israel (complete Israel). The Israel of God. The house of Israel. The Oliver Tree. The Fig tree. The Church. The assembly. The great assembly. The Jerusalem above. The New Jerusalem. The vehicle of weaning mankind from the flesh to the spirit... from death to life... from condemnation to salvation (only made possible by the sacrifice of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world).

I applaud the Berean ethic of searching scriptures (Acts 17:11)... testing the spirits (1John 4:1)... proving what is true (1 Thessalonians 5:21)... for years I have advocated this and more. But, if one cannot disprove BY this scriptural examination what is shown to be in scripture (other then to say they simply do not believe it or call it a mere interpretation) then that is not being a Berean at all.

Acts 17:11 (NASB95)

11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

It doesn't say to see if they could find a way not to believe these things...

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95)

21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

In the light of all the many scriptures I quoted so you cannot say I jerked one verse out of the Bible or out of context... how do you interpret the Bible differently than I here?

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Or here:

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Or here:

Philippians 3:3 (NASB95)

3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

[JohnD]

Sorry, Yod, I overlooked this post...

Over the years I have studied this subject. And I have been led to conclude the following:

There are two Israels: a physical and a spiritual.

That's not the best definition you could use...and I'm not so sure it's even accurate. Guess it depends on how *you* define spiritual. I agree there are ways to define Israel as two entities.

1. there is faithful and unfaithful (Not all Israel is Israel)

2. there is under grace (saved) and under the law (not saved) -

3. There are "true" Yehudim (jews - Rom 2:29) and there are Yehudim (praisers) who aren't living as a praise to their Elohim.

4. There is the Israel of God and the Israel of the flesh

We can say the same things about the Nations (Gentiles)

Ultimate reality is completely spiritual, but most humans only see physical manifestation. In other words what we see in our flesh (temporal) is not as real as the spiritual (eternal).

Our eyes can see a little clearer into the spiritual world once we have gone through the spiritual-reality-Gate (Yeshua) but that's another topic. With regards to Israel, yes, there is a sense in which we can call it "spiritual" but one doesn't exist without the other as I *think* you are trying to say.

In other words, only Israel can be "spiritual Israel". Those in Israel who are not faithful are not "true Jews", they are not included in "The Israel of God" apart from faithfulness. The same applies to Gentiles who wish to be adopted (grafted-in)

Gentiles aren't "spiritual Israel" though we are joined to it; included by grafting/adoption. (Ephesians 2 & 3) This grafting in has been likened by the scriptures as an adoption with full rights & access to Abba, so neither is "better" than the other in their position as His, but there are still distinctions.

Unfortunately I find that people look at distinctions and then start making human comparisons...which they themselves will view and then judge in terms of one being "better" out of their own envy. This is why so many people have a problem saying the Jews are the chosen people. They have (a) the wrong idea about what the means and (b) they don't realize we are all chosen for a purpose distinct to ourself.

This is the root of envy, imo. Alas...I digress.

So are you saying that gentiles are joined to the Israel of God?

Yes. Spiritually. Spiritually in that we are joined to the Israel of God but not the Israel of man (meaning faith in the Jewish Messiah does not make Gentile born believers physically Jewish). In Christ there is neither male nor female Jew Gentile slave free (the operative words being In Christ / spiritually as opposed to physically where there are indeed male and females Jews and Gentiles slaves and free). A physical Gentile can only be grafted in as a spiritual Jew. A physical Jew can be both physically and spiritually Jewish.

The problem with the Church is that it suffers from an identity crisis.

The Jewish leadership abdicated when God advanced the faith into the New Covenant (the same way he did the Old Covenant from the Noahide and so on back from the beginning). Gentile leadership did as best they could, but got the notion it was righteous to expunge from the faith everything Jewish in the name of putting down legalism / Judaizing. In short they threw out the Baby with the bathwater and supplied pagan-based traditions (like Astarte and Saturnalia and all saints day etc etc). Nature and matters of spirit deplore a vacuum. And these filled the void.

I hope this answers your question.

And yes, God has still saved millions and millions who got the basic theology (core doctrine) correct despite all of the above.

[Guest yod]

I am not judging. I merely quote this consistent theme throughout the Bible.

The vehicle God created goes by several names. Israel. The Israel of God. The house of Israel. The Oliver Tree. The Fig tree.

I can agree with this much.

All Israel (complete Israel).

As you have stated, not all Israel is Israel. There is the faithful remnant and the larger unfaithful portion until that day when "all Israel" will be saved.

The Church.

And here is where I have to ask questions because there are so many different definitions of that term also. The "Church" and the Israel of God aren't *necessarily* defined as the same thing so it would be good if you could clarify why you would include these terms in the same sentence/list.

So help a brutha out, would ya? Again I ask.....do you see faithful gentiles as being joined to the faithful remnant of Israel, "the Israel of God, The house of Israel. The Oliver Tree. The Fig tree".....as the scriptures do?

OR....do you hold the view of some church theologians who say that a new, specifically christian, religious institution formed in Europe is the church and is somehow able to define itself apart from the scriptures as "spiritual" Israel???

The assembly. The great assembly. The Jerusalem above. The New Jerusalem

.

The assembly (Kehilah) we can find in the scriptures. It was made of those faithful of the nations who joined themselves to the Israel of God, The house of Israel. The Oliver Tree. The Fig tree....as mentioned in Ephesians 2 and 3.

The vehicle of weaning mankind from the flesh to the spirit...

....is the Word mixed with strong trust.

[Guest]

Don't allow presupposition, pride, prejudice, or tradition cloud your understanding of the Word of God. It's right there in print.

Amen~!

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

Jesus Saves

I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:12-17

What?

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12-10

Would God Lie?

In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. Zackariah 13:1-2

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

[JohnD]

And here is where I have to ask questions because there are so many different definitions of that term also. The "Church" and the Israel of God aren't *necessarily* defined as the same thing so it would be good if you could clarify why you would include these terms in the same sentence/list.

So help a brutha out, would ya? Again I ask.....do you see faithful gentiles as being joined to the faithful remnant of Israel, "the Israel of God, The house of Israel. The Oliver Tree. The Fig tree".....as the scriptures do?

OR....do you hold the view of some church theologians who say that a new, specifically christian, religious institution formed in Europe is the church and is somehow able to define itself apart from the scriptures as "spiritual" Israel???

Thought I answered this first sentence above.

All who are saved are joined to the vehicle God created / ordained... the Olive Tree / Fig Tree / Israel of God. Not the other way around as the theologians you cite claim. That was my point about the Goyish take over by the Hebrew abdication... it doesn't change the vehicle, just whose running it and the subsequent manifestation of paganism / goyisms resulting.

Hope that answers your questions.

[JohnD]

Nebula, I understand where you are coming from about why God called Ya'acob Yisra'el... but it is also a fact of the the matter that what I posted is what Yisra'el is actually defined as in the lexicon.

[nebula]

I can only keep quoting scripture till you are willing to believe the Bible:

Don't allow presupposition, pride, prejudice, or tradition cloud your understanding of the Word of God. It's right there in print.

Chilling your own arrogance will do wonders for this discussion.

[nebula]

That was my point about the Goyish take over by the Hebrew abdication... it doesn't change the vehicle, just whose running it and the subsequent manifestation of paganism / goyisms resulting.

Hope that answers your questions.

Yes, it confirms you are either tripping over your words or my initial impressions were correct.

God's "Israel" was never meant to be "taken over" or "run" by humans - Jesus is the Head!

You cannot say there is "neither Jew nor Gentile" yet then create a division by handing the reigns to the Goyim. This is what has destroyed Christianity - we "took over" rather than keeping true to the true Leader.

Edited April 12, 2011 by nebula