Why Choose Christianity?

[A Muslim]

You need to read a verse in the context in which it was spoken.

Even if this was the case, he was talking about dying and sacrifice and being a martyr to be a real symbol for Christians, but he didn't say that this was among the salvation plan Christians believe in.

While He is fully God, He is also fully man.

Philippians 2

As a man, He had to deal with all the limitations we have to deal with. And what he knew He was about to go through was very hard. He knew He had to face betrayal, rejection, whipping, the crucifixion, and bearing the sin of the world (Isaiah 53). Something like that would be difficult and tormenting for anyone to face.

Know also that in emptying Himself, He was seeing the future from the perspective of a human, not from the perspective of God

Well, if that was the case. He may have been frightened for a while, but this fright shouldn't let him to ask God to retreat, this is an excessive fright. Besides, this shows that Jesus the man doesn't have enough faith, yes he may be about to die and he may be afraid to die, but asking to retreat means that his faith is not full. Actually I see people having more faith although their faith is sometimes in false principles, look at the Japanese kamikaaz for example and see how they drove their aircrafts into American fleet without hesitation. Look at the suicide bombers for example, and see how they bomb themselves. Doesn't Jesus have enough faith as they have? Isn't he that brave as they are?

As for Isaiah 53, you say that he knew what he shall face through it. Ok, where did he quote it to tell people that he was the one meant by that chapter and that the chapter was talking about the salvation mission he came to accomplish? This is the main scripture Christians use to prove the salvation plan in the OT, did Jesus really know about what Christians did?

Edited June 6, 2011 by A Muslim

[A Muslim]

There is no need to work, do good or avoid sins to keep God from loving us. We are saved by God's grace thru faith in Jesus. As our relationship with God develops, good works come naturally. When saved we are all equal in God's eye's, God see's Jesus in each one of us. HE is no respecter of persons.

Avoiding sins all has to do with how much we love God. We tend to sin because we love ourselves more than God or anyone else. Most sin comes from our selfish desires or whats in our heart. Siblings sometimes work to gain their fathers approval. They'll actually do mean things to each other to get it. Bottom line it's all done for personal gain which is selfishness.

My God is a God of LOVE. God created each one of us and It doesn't make any sense that He would have us kill one another to be with Him, does it? Our religion teaches us that the battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces.

So the question rises again, two Christians who really love God, one of them did better works and avoided sins more than the other, will they be equal before God?

[Botz]

There is no need to work, do good or avoid sins to keep God from loving us. We are saved by God's grace thru faith in Jesus. As our relationship with God develops, good works come naturally. When saved we are all equal in God's eye's, God see's Jesus in each one of us. HE is no respecter of persons.

Avoiding sins all has to do with how much we love God. We tend to sin because we love ourselves more than God or anyone else. Most sin comes from our selfish desires or whats in our heart. Siblings sometimes work to gain their fathers approval. They'll actually do mean things to each other to get it. Bottom line it's all done for personal gain which is selfishness.

My God is a God of LOVE. God created each one of us and It doesn't make any sense that He would have us kill one another to be with Him, does it? Our religion teaches us that the battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces.

So the question rises again, two Christians who really love God, one of them did better works and avoided sins more than the other, will they be equal before God?

Equal before G-d yes...because the blood of the Lamb availed for both of them...what their degree of glory will be in eternity only the L-rd can say....we will probably all see bad things we built into our lives, or things we never overcame burnt up in His Holy fire...but even this will be to His glory. It's a bit like seeing who will sit on the left or the right hand side of Jesus, which speaks of relationship and closeness....

[nebula]

But to go back to what started this - why do you need to know what rewards you are promised?

Jesus told us to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. Now we can imagine what those "treasures" are. But what if Heaven is so glorious that mere descriptions of those rewards would not suffice?

This is not the point,

OK, I've gotten lost in the mix of things then. What is the point?

but many people cannot imagine them so if they knew generally about what these rewards are, and of course not all of them, this may help them resist their temptations, as the example I gave for alcohol for example, if a man knew that in Heaven he would have a pure non harmful wine, if he was tempted to drink it, this may help him overcome this temptation. For example, you may say to your child, if you stayed away from eating others' food, I will get you a better food.

Why do you treat rewards as the goal or as the incentive to resist temptation?

While they may encourage us, the promise of rewards, even specific rewards will not give one the power to overcome sin.

Sin is overcome when it is no longer a temptation - not because you have become strong enough to resist it, but because the desire is no longer in you. It is then that you have overcome sin. And this is what it means to be freed from sin.

Does your Allah promise this to you?

Jesus spoke about being set free. He talked about dying to yourself (your lusts, your ungodly desires, your unrighteous deeds, etc.) and being born anew.

While the process of this transformation takes time and purpose of will, it is promised to us who believe in Jesus and have the Holy Spirit residing in us.

And yes, there are sins that no longer have any hold on me. In fact, they actually disgust me now.

That's freedom!!!

And besides, not having the rewards written means that perhaps the Lord reserves rewards that are specific to each person's desires, and not general ones that not everyone may prefer as much as something else.

Of course this is not the case, as in Heaven God will give us all what we want, and rewards promised are usually common ones between all people.

At this point we are tit-for-tatting what is written or not in our different holy books. That won't get us anywhere.

But if someone confesses faith but continues to live their lives as if they are still their own god, I would seriously question the what "faith" means to them, and if they actually meant it.

This is not necessary the case, he may know that he is sinning, but he can't leave the sin because he is weak.

Luke 6

43 "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good ; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil ; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Do you believe this?

[nebula]

As for "losing salvation for sinning," Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin, and that is "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost."

Sins like addictions, bad attitudes, harboring grudges, etc. - there is no evidence one would "lose salvation" over such things.

So if someone repented from blasphemy of the holy ghost, what would be his case? How do you define the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost?

Matthew 12

31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Do you believe the words of Jesus, or don't you?

If one knows the prophecies He was fulfilling one understands.

Why didn't Jesus tell the people about these prophecies if he really meant them? Now neither he said that he is the sacrifice or the atonement of the OT nor did he talk about the prophecies in the OT telling about it but these were said after his resurrection, what was he saying?

He didn't need to tell the people about the prophecies because they all knew them. They were raised to know the Scriptures. They were taught the prophecies. Much of what Jesus said referred back to the Law and the Prophets and the Oral Traditions.

For example, when Jesus said, "I am the manna that came down from Heaven," (John 6), He didn't need to explain as to what He was referring to, for they knew all about the manna.

Or when John the Baptist asked Jesus, ""Are You the One who is to come, or shall we look for someone else?" (Matt. 11:3, Luke 7:19), Jesus answered with evidence of fulfilled prophecy. He didn't need to repeat to John the words of the prophet, for John knew the words. Just by mentioning He did those things the prophecy states was enough for John to put the pieces together for himself.

You need to read this in context. Jesus' prayer begins with:

"Father, the hour has come ; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You," (vs. 1)

Do you know what He meant by "the hour has come"?

Well, according to the context, he talked about the works he accomplished which was revealing the Father to people know(vs. 6 and after), and he didn't talk here about salvation through his death which was supposed to be the main mission he came for, neither did he talk about dying for the world.

The hour that has come, he seems to talk about glory through resurrection to God, but that doesn't mean that he was talking about dying for the people's sins. And may be he looks at martyrdom to be glory.

You are speculating.

John 3

14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged ; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The term "lifted up" was a common expression at that time for being crucified.

But why do you speak of martyrdom? I have heard the Qur'an teaches that Jesus never died.

But Jesus told His disciples several times he would be put to death and then rise again on the third day.

Do you believe Jesus words?

[nebula]

While He is fully God, He is also fully man.

Philippians 2

As a man, He had to deal with all the limitations we have to deal with. And what he knew He was about to go through was very hard. He knew He had to face betrayal, rejection, whipping, the crucifixion, and bearing the sin of the world (Isaiah 53). Something like that would be difficult and tormenting for anyone to face.

Know also that in emptying Himself, He was seeing the future from the perspective of a human, not from the perspective of God

Well, if that was the case. He may have been frightened for a while, but this fright shouldn't let him to ask God to retreat, this is an excessive fright. Besides, this shows that Jesus the man doesn't have enough faith, yes he may be about to die and he may be afraid to die, but asking to retreat means that his faith is not full. Actually I see people having more faith although their faith is sometimes in false principles, look at the Japanese kamikaaz for example and see how they drove their aircrafts into American fleet without hesitation. Look at the suicide bombers for example, and see how they bomb themselves. Doesn't Jesus have enough faith as they have? Isn't he that brave as they are?

There are holes in your example. Kamikazes and suicide bombers have control over their death. Kamikazes and suicide bombers anticipate a fairly quick death. They do not anticipate hours of agony to include being whipped, beaten, nails being driven into their bodies, and spending hours on the edge of suffocation only to be relieved by putting pressure on the nail-driven wounds.

But unlike your skepticism, knowing Jesus, as Son of Man, had to endure human weaknesses - and overcame them - it encourages me that He understands my own weaknesses and fears and knows what it is like to face them, for I have assurance that He sympathizes with my weaknesses and will extend grace and mercy. And since it was not sin for Him to endure the struggle, I can feel safe knowing that crying out to God myself in my fears isn't sin so long as my heart is still surrendered to the will of the Father (just as Jesus was - "Not as I will, but Thine be done.").

As for Isaiah 53, you say that he knew what he shall face through it. Ok, where did he quote it to tell people that he was the one meant by that chapter and that the chapter was talking about the salvation mission he came to accomplish? This is the main scripture Christians use to prove the salvation plan in the OT, did Jesus really know about what Christians did?

He didn't need to quote and explain it. Such Scriptures/prophecies were common knowledge to the people.

You seem to fail to understand that Jesus was a circumcised, Torah-observant Jew - and a rabbi at that. He was speaking to other circumcised, Torah-observant Jews who were immersed in these Scriptures from birth.

[A Muslim]

But to go back to what started this - why do you need to know what rewards you are promised?

Jesus told us to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. Now we can imagine what those "treasures" are. But what if Heaven is so glorious that mere descriptions of those rewards would not suffice?

This is not the point,

OK, I've gotten lost in the mix of things then. What is the point?

I was talking about your last statement of whether mere descriptions of Heaven suffice or not. This wasn't my point, but my point was that these descriptions are an incentive to do good and leave sins as I explained.

Why do you treat rewards as the goal or as the incentive to resist temptation?

Well, I never said that it is the goal or the incentive. I said it's A goal and AN incentive but not alone, we believe that we should worship Allah with three aspects, love, asking rewards and fear, and scholars give an example of this by a bird, it's head is love and its wings are rewards and fear. If you worship without love, then you are not actually worshiping as the bird is dead, if you are worshiping with love only, then the bird can't fly because this is not a real worship as God is the All Supreme and we are nothing compared to God and worshiping God without fear disturbs the relationship between man and God, otherwise God won't have created hell. If fear was overwhelmed on rewards or the opposite, then the worship is unbalanced and it mostly results in heresies as despairing from God's mercy for those who overwhelm fear, or thinking that sins are something trivial as man believes as those who overwhelm love or rewards.

Sin is overcome when it is no longer a temptation - not because you have become strong enough to resist it, but because the desire is no longer in you. It is then that you have overcome sin. And this is what it means to be freed from sin.

Does your Allah promise this to you?

Well, as you said, this process takes time and that's why there must be more than one road to expedite it, I agree with what you are saying, but this is actually a bit ideal, it happens, but not with most people, that's why there must be more than one incentive to avoid sins.

And yes, there are sins that no longer have any hold on me. In fact, they actually disgust me now.

That's freedom!!!

Does this mean that you are not sinning anymore? If you say so, I won't believe you.

Luke 6

43 "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good ; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil ; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Do you believe this?

Of course not, because no one is 100% percent good and no one is 100% bad, you can see people who love people and want to help them, but they cannot stop being lust or smoking and you may see them defending their faith strongly either Muslims or Christians, but they may have some sins whom they cannot repent. So I disagree with that and that's why God accounts their people by balancing their good deeds and bad deeds because they are neither 100% good nor 100% bad.

[A Muslim]

As for "losing salvation for sinning," Jesus said there is only one unforgivable sin, and that is "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost."

Sins like addictions, bad attitudes, harboring grudges, etc. - there is no evidence one would "lose salvation" over such things.

So if someone repented from blasphemy of the holy ghost, what would be his case? How do you define the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost?

Matthew 12

31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Well, Judas of Iscariot repented from what he did with Jesus and wasn't forgiven, and many people don't believe in Jesus and insult him, do yu believe that they will be forgiven and enter Paradise? In Islam, any sin is forgiven if man repented because Allah is the All Merciful and All Forgiver.

Do you believe the words of Jesus, or don't you?

Of course I believe in the words of Jesus but I don't believe in the Bible. The Bible may contain some truth but I believe that it was subject to lots of alterations and interpolations. You may see my belief in the Bible in this link, this is my own site, I am not just copying or pasting:

http://sites.google.com/site/christismuslim/thebible

He didn't need to tell the people about the prophecies because they all knew them. They were raised to know the Scriptures. They were taught the prophecies. Much of what Jesus said referred back to the Law and the Prophets and the Oral Traditions.

Well, the verse in Luke you've just quoted said that these two persons didn't know about these scriptures until they were told about it.

For example, when Jesus said, "I am the manna that came down from Heaven," (John 6), He didn't need to explain as to what He was referring to, for they knew all about the manna.

Or when John the Baptist asked Jesus, ""Are You the One who is to come, or shall we look for someone else?" (Matt. 11:3, Luke 7:19), Jesus answered with evidence of fulfilled prophecy. He didn't need to repeat to John the words of the prophet, for John knew the words. Just by mentioning He did those things the prophecy states was enough for John to put the pieces together for himself.

These are just talking about the Messiah, doesn't say that the Messiah came to die for their sins, Jesus already said the work the Father gave him to accomplish:4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

6

[A Muslim]

While He is fully God, He is also fully man.

Philippians 2

As a man, He had to deal with all the limitations we have to deal with. And what he knew He was about to go through was very hard. He knew He had to face betrayal, rejection, whipping, the crucifixion, and bearing the sin of the world (Isaiah 53). Something like that would be difficult and tormenting for anyone to face.

Know also that in emptying Himself, He was seeing the future from the perspective of a human, not from the perspective of God

Well, if that was the case. He may have been frightened for a while, but this fright shouldn't let him to ask God to retreat, this is an excessive fright. Besides, this shows that Jesus the man doesn't have enough faith, yes he may be about to die and he may be afraid to die, but asking to retreat means that his faith is not full. Actually I see people having more faith although their faith is sometimes in false principles, look at the Japanese kamikaaz for example and see how they drove their aircrafts into American fleet without hesitation. Look at the suicide bombers for example, and see how they bomb themselves. Doesn't Jesus have enough faith as they have? Isn't he that brave as they are?

There are holes in your example. Kamikazes and suicide bombers have control over their death. Kamikazes and suicide bombers anticipate a fairly quick death. They do not anticipate hours of agony to include being whipped, beaten, nails being driven into their bodies, and spending hours on the edge of suffocation only to be relieved by putting pressure on the nail-driven wounds.

Well, even for that case, Jesus wasn't the first nor the last to be tortured and I have examples in the Quran and through the life of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his disciples who were tortured severely and never retreated as the case with Jesus the man. Even for suicide bombers, there is a probability of failure and they could be arrested and tortured, so there is no big difference.

But unlike your skepticism, knowing Jesus, as Son of Man, had to endure human weaknesses - and overcame them - it encourages me that He understands my own weaknesses and fears and knows what it is like to face them, for I have assurance that He sympathizes with my weaknesses and will extend grace and mercy. And since it was not sin for Him to endure the struggle, I can feel safe knowing that crying out to God myself in my fears isn't sin so long as my heart is still surrendered to the will of the Father (just as Jesus was - "Not as I will, but Thine be done.").

Well, I see this against God's Mightiness, I already believe that God sympathizes my weakness and He is more Merciful to me than a mother to her child and there are lots of Islamic scriptures talking about these issue, God needn't humiliate himself and appears in a weak form to show me that He sympathizes my weakness, I see that as a blasphemy against God that doesn't differ a lot from idolatry.

He didn't need to quote and explain it. Such Scriptures/prophecies were common knowledge to the people.

Well, the Jews don't believe this scripture refers to the Messiah but to the Babylonian captivity. Jesus already quoted many OT verses in issues which are much less important than this issue which is the main purpose of Christianity. I really wonder why Jesus concerns on trivial issues and ignores talking about main Christian issues!

[Shiloh62]

Mainly because Christianity is the one that says that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and if you believe in Him ,and accept Him as your personal saviour, you will have eternal life.