Methodist Church: Homosexuality is a Gift, Not a Sin

[MorningGlory]

[enoob57]

If your point JohnDB is to tell us there are other sins in the church besides homosexuality, I agree. If your point is to say that those who are not perfect are not qualified to take a position against sin, I disagree. We are not talking about condemning a specific individual here. We are talking about whether or not homosexuality is a sin? There is no question it is. We are asking whether a church should call sin a gift? I would say absolutely not. Should a church call an overwhelming desire to steal a gift? Should a church call being a sex addict a gift and call on everyone to show tolerance towards adulterers?

Is 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Being a sinner does not mean I cannot point out what the bible dictates is sinful. Should we be silent? No

Luke 11:33-36

33 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. 34 The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35 Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light."

NKJV

If they lust after their own genitalia and like kind they have become self worshiped and inward .... they have become an abomination to design and to common sense! There is simply no continuance in man / man... and whoever cannot understand this-> separation from your Creator is all that remains for you! Love Steven

[enoob57]

Need a wet rag and The Rapture... ... I have to admit it dumb founds me to hear those who pro this all the while being abomination From God's Own Mouth

"If I only had a brain"................... Love Steven

[~candice~]

If your point JohnDB is to tell us there are other sins in the church besides homosexuality, I agree. If your point is to say that those who are not perfect are not qualified to take a position against sin, I disagree. We are not talking about condemning a specific individual here. We are talking about whether or not homosexuality is a sin? There is no question it is. We are asking whether a church should call sin a gift? I would say absolutely not. Should a church call an overwhelming desire to steal a gift? Should a church call being a sex addict a gift and call on everyone to show tolerance towards adulterers?

Is 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Being a sinner does not mean I cannot point out what the bible dictates is sinful. Should we be silent? No

Luke 11:33-36

33 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. 34 The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35 Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light."

NKJV

If they lust after their own genitalia and like kind they have become self worshiped and inward .... you have become an abomination to design and to common sense! There is simply no continuance in man / man... and whoever cannot understand this-> separation from your Creator is all that remains for you! Love Steven

Yes, it represents a drastic shift in understanding from what I believe is the Lord's design. However, let's be careful suggesting that all that remains for those who don't understand this concept is separation from the Lord. I've been debating this very topic in another thread... perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord.

[Guest Butero]

Lets look first at context of the Leviticus passages. Lets start with Leviticus 18. From the beginning of the chapter, we see that the things in this chapter are against the practices of Egypt and the practices of Canaan. Since we know from history that neither of the two cultures allowed same sex relationships, we know that its not talking about same sex relationships. Rather, its referring to the ancient fertility rituals of the pagan Egyptians and Pagan Canaanites.

Do you really expect us to believe that there were no homosexuals in the land of Cana? That is as ridiculous sounding as when the ruler of Iran made that comment about his nation at the U.N. No, I do not accept that premise. In addition to that, I don't see any reference to an ancient fertility ritual. Just how are we supposed to know that is what this is talking about, even if such rituals took place? Then I have another question. If homosexuality was forbidden in the land of Cana, how did homosexual acts take place in a fertility ritual, and what does homosexual activity have to do with fertility? Two men and two women can't pro-create. You need to re-think this.

The more immediate context of Lev 18:22 is Lev 18:21-31. It begins with "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD." Clearly, the context shows that this prohibition is against cultic practices the worshippers of Molech used in their spring festivities.

Actually, this chapter covers a whole host of sexual sins before we even get to that issue. Those are additional acts of immorality.

Leviticus 20 begins with the prohibition against Molech, and afterwards goes into more detail of how he was worshiped. The rituals of Molech worship included sacrificing one's firstborn, incestuous sexual orgies, and same sex orgies.

What the Bible is addressing in these passages is the pagan rituals of Molech worship, not monogamous same-sex relationships.

The chapter does indeed begin by speaking of worship of Molech, but the entire chapter is not speaking only of Molech worship. This wasn't originally divided up into chapter. That was done when the Bible was put together so it would be easier to locate specific things. Yet another problem. You stated that sex between people of the same sex was not allowed. That is an obvious contradiction.

Okay bed time! Work was crazy today. Good night everyone and God bless!

Goodnight. You really need to take another look at your arguments. They just don't add up. This doesn't even take into account the fact that homosexual activity of any kind is fornication.

[Guest]

Severely

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. Leviticus 20:13-15

No

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Lets look first at context of the Leviticus passages. Lets start with Leviticus 18. From the beginning of the chapter, we see that the things in this chapter are against the practices of Egypt and the practices of Canaan. Since we know from history that neither of the two cultures allowed same sex relationships, we know that its not talking about same sex relationships. Rather, its referring to the ancient fertility rituals of the pagan Egyptians and Pagan Canaanites.

The more immediate context of Lev 18:22 is Lev 18:21-31. It begins with "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD." Clearly, the context shows that this prohibition is against cultic practices the worshippers of Molech used in their spring festivities.

Leviticus 20 begins with the prohibition against Molech, and afterwards goes into more detail of how he was worshiped. The rituals of Molech worship included sacrificing one's firstborn, incestuous sexual orgies, and same sex orgies.

What the Bible is addressing in these passages is the pagan rituals of Molech worship, not monogamous same-sex relationships.

Okay bed time! Work was crazy today. Good night everyone and God bless!

God

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Genesis 2:18-25

Blesses

Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD. Proverbs 18:22

And God Judges

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Romans 1:25-27

And Clearly Lying

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

To Sinners

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

Is Unkind

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:14-15

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Isaiah 29:10-14

[Guest man]

Yes, it represents a drastic shift in understanding from what I believe is the Lord's design. However, let's be careful suggesting that all that remains for those who don't understand this concept is separation from the Lord. I've been debating this very topic in another thread... perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord.

2 Peter 3

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;

15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation

[~candice~]

So, your point is what? Once again you appear to be asserting the notion that you need perfect understanding to be saved. Is that the case or not? Seriously man, do you have perfect understanding and theology? Because if you don't, by your own standard you are doomed.

[Byron A]

If your point JohnDB is to tell us there are other sins in the church besides homosexuality, I agree. If your point is to say that those who are not perfect are not qualified to take a position against sin, I disagree. We are not talking about condemning a specific individual here. We are talking about whether or not homosexuality is a sin? There is no question it is. We are asking whether a church should call sin a gift? I would say absolutely not. Should a church call an overwhelming desire to steal a gift? Should a church call being a sex addict a gift and call on everyone to show tolerance towards adulterers?

Is 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Being a sinner does not mean I cannot point out what the bible dictates is sinful. Should we be silent? No

Luke 11:33-36

33 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, puts it in a secret place or under a basket, but on a lampstand, that those who come in may see the light. 34 The lamp of the body is the eye. Therefore, when your eye is good, your whole body also is full of light. But when your eye is bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35 Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness. 36 If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, the whole body will be full of light, as when the bright shining of a lamp gives you light."

NKJV

If they lust after their own genitalia and like kind they have become self worshiped and inward .... you have become an abomination to design and to common sense! There is simply no continuance in man / man... and whoever cannot understand this-> separation from your Creator is all that remains for you! Love Steven

Yes, it represents a drastic shift in understanding from what I believe is the Lord's design. However, let's be careful suggesting that all that remains for those who don't understand this concept is separation from the Lord. I've been debating this very topic in another thread... perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord.

i agree with you that "perfect understanding, scripture, doctrine etc is not required for salvation and we should not judge someone unsaved if they have faith in the Lord." I would even go further and say that perfect obedience is not necessary for salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works.

I have been condemned enough in this topic simply because my beliefs vary from mainstream. I myself am not gay, do not practice homosexual acts, and am actually engaged to be married to a woman. But because my understanding differs, I am condemned to hell? Whatever happened to "Attack the belief, not the person holding the belief"?

Well I am done discussing this. Many of these people have shown the unChristian characteristic of judging people to hell, which is a job that belongs to God ALONE.