The Error of Treating Christian Piety synonymously with Patriotism

[~candice~]

I just realized something, I'm debating with a man that has no clue what American Patriotism is, it is pointless to debate. Amor your country may not know what American Patriotism is or feels like, but your country sure felt the wrath of our patriotism, twice, once to gain our freedom and once to keep it.

GOD BLESS AMERICA........okay, okay...........AND ENGLAND

Was that really necessary?

[amor]

Nobody said anything about making a country into a God, But you.

Is dying for others unchristian?

So what would you call Jesus dying for us on the cross?

I see nothing Christian or Christlike in dying for the glory of political leaders, and they're the ones who take the decisions about when to go to war. I see nothing Christian in going to a foreign country and bombing and shooting the residents be they combatant or non-combatant. The UK and US both have nuclear arms I see no possible way that such non-specific weapons can be seen as Christian.

[nebula]

I see nothing Christian or Christlike in dying for the glory of political leaders, and they're the ones who take the decisions about when to go to war.

I never heard of anyone over here dying for the glory of the political leaders.

Dying for their State (Civil War) or dying for their country, yes. But not the leader.

[oldzimm]

I just realized something, I'm debating with a man that has no clue what American Patriotism is, it is pointless to debate. Amor your country may not know what American Patriotism is or feels like, but your country sure felt the wrath of our patriotism, twice, once to gain our freedom and once to keep it.

GOD BLESS AMERICA........okay, okay...........AND ENGLAND

Was that really necessary?

The first sentence I'll stand by, the second about not knowing what American Patriotism is or feels like, I can stand by, but the rest of the sentence (even though factual) I will agree it was in poor taste for the topic, (my bad) a brain gone wild. Please whomever I offended, please accept my apology.

GOD BLESS AMERICA, GOD BLESS ENGLAND and any other country of the free world. For the countries that are under a dictatorship or anything less then freedom, I Pray God wills that you have peace, freedom and happiness someday, in the name of Jesus, Amen.

[~candice~]

GBU Oldzimm

[oldzimm]

I see nothing Christian or Christlike in dying for the glory of political leaders, and they're the ones who take the decisions about when to go to war.

I never heard of anyone over here dying for the glory of the political leaders.

Dying for their State (Civil War) or dying for their country, yes. But not the leader.

Neb, your absolutely right, I made reference to it before, if someone never walked in our shoes, they have no idea what our patriotism is like. Nobody forced me to join the military, I did it because I wanted to do something for my country. I didn't go to war for President Bush, I went to war to preserve America's Freedoms for future generations and if it meant my death, so be it.

I will say that all avenues of a peaceful solution should completely run their course before going to war. I believe there may have been wars where all the avenues of peaceful solutions may not of been tried, and we can't do anything about it, it's history. I also believe there are times like the attack on Pearl Harbor and 9-11, when all peaceful avenues were completely wiped off the table and rightfully so.

[Miss Elly]

What would Jesus do if he were here? Would he get involved in a miltant activity for his "rights"? Would he be in the white house hobnobbing with the politicians, marching in the streets for reform? I think not! Jesus knew that to change anything politically that peoples' hearts must be changed first. He was more interested in the kingdom of God than he would have been in the kingdoms of this world, or the kingdom of the president of the United States. Yet he said to obey them that are over you and to pay your taxes. I just can't fathom Jesus screaming and ranting about any political platform.....as for the one about abortion is wrong, it's a sin, it's wrong.....he would be yelling sex without marriage is wrong, it is a sin, and that would take care of the "need for abortion" problem and all decent people being upset because millions of children are murdered. TWO wrongs here, but one is not mentioned.

Personally I get weary of people who refuse to tell the whole truth about what their "platform" is....and I have been known to tell them so. The poor girl screaming and handing out pamplets about abortion being wrong (there was an abortion clinic in my building where I worked that I was unaware of) and carrying on like she was slightly insane...... I took one from her and I said, why don't you people spend equal time on what is really wrong? Like sex without marriage is a sin. Why don't you preach THAT? She was speechless. Sorry, it just gets my gall up....

[oldzimm]

What would Jesus do if he were here? Would he get involved in a miltant activity for his "rights"? Would he be in the white house hobnobbing with the politicians, marching in the streets for reform? I think not! Jesus knew that to change anything politically that peoples' hearts must be changed first. He was more interested in the kingdom of God than he would have been in the kingdoms of this world, or the kingdom of the president of the United States. Yet he said to obey them that are over you and to pay your taxes. I just can't fathom Jesus screaming and ranting about any political platform.....as for the one about abortion is wrong, it's a sin, it's wrong.....he would be yelling sex without marriage is wrong, it is a sin, and that would take care of the "need for abortion" problem and all decent people being upset because millions of children are murdered. TWO wrongs here, but one is not mentioned.

Personally I get weary of people who refuse to tell the whole truth about what their "platform" is....and I have been known to tell them so. The poor girl screaming and handing out pamplets about abortion being wrong (there was an abortion clinic in my building where I worked that I was unaware of) and carrying on like she was slightly insane...... I took one from her and I said, why don't you people spend equal time on what is really wrong? Like sex without marriage is a sin. Why don't you preach THAT? She was speechless. Sorry, it just gets my gall up....

No Miss Elly, if Jesus were still walking the earth in the flesh, I would doubt very much if he would be in any militant group, he wouldn't be swapping stories with politicians and he wouldn't be marching the streets for any reform (worldly that is). When Jesus was here in the flesh, his main goal was teach the word and save us from an eternity in hell, Knowing of my own sins, I think he had enough on his plate.

Now for us mere mortals, we are to strive to be more like Jesus, yet we will never be like Jesus until we are called home again. Unfortunately, the reason we will never be like Jesus as long as were breathing is (1) we will always stumble and if we are Christians, we are suppose to pick ourselves back up and continue in the race to the cross. (2) I firmly believe God has meant for man to have government. If it weren't for government, can you imagine the total disorder there would be in this world? So as Christians we must first, keep our eyes on Jesus and second, we must keep up on worldly events, so we can have better lives for ourselves and build a better tomorrow for future generations.

I for one, refuse to bury my head in the sand, pretending there is nothing going on in the world around me and I don't think Jesus would want me to do that either. I believe Jesus would want us to make a difference, if we have the God given ability to do so, for the betterment of man kind.

[nebula]

We also have to remember that Jesus lived in a different political system than we do.

And I agree with oldzimm, He had a particular mission to fulfill.

The question we need to ask is, "What is my mission?" (Or , "What is the mission the Lord has for me to fulfill?") Because we (in the US anyway) live in a government system that invites, encourages, and even requires its citizens to put their voice into the political affairs, we have to determine for ourselves between us and the Lord if involvement with politics interferes with, coincides with, or is a part of our individual mission here on Earth.

[Guest Butero]

What would Jesus do if he were here? Would he get involved in a miltant activity for his "rights"? Would he be in the white house hobnobbing with the politicians, marching in the streets for reform? I think not! Jesus knew that to change anything politically that peoples' hearts must be changed first. He was more interested in the kingdom of God than he would have been in the kingdoms of this world, or the kingdom of the president of the United States. Yet he said to obey them that are over you and to pay your taxes. I just can't fathom Jesus screaming and ranting about any political platform.....as for the one about abortion is wrong, it's a sin, it's wrong.....he would be yelling sex without marriage is wrong, it is a sin, and that would take care of the "need for abortion" problem and all decent people being upset because millions of children are murdered. TWO wrongs here, but one is not mentioned.

Personally I get weary of people who refuse to tell the whole truth about what their "platform" is....and I have been known to tell them so. The poor girl screaming and handing out pamplets about abortion being wrong (there was an abortion clinic in my building where I worked that I was unaware of) and carrying on like she was slightly insane...... I took one from her and I said, why don't you people spend equal time on what is really wrong? Like sex without marriage is a sin. Why don't you preach THAT? She was speechless. Sorry, it just gets my gall up....

The Apostle Paul had no problem in demanding his rights be upheld. From Acts 22:25-29

25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

26 When the centurion heard that, he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.

28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

29 Then straightforway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

Based on this example, I would say that we should get militant and demand our rights be upheld. I would also point to the way Paul handled things in Acts 16:35-38

35 And when it was day, the magistrates sent the serjeants, saying, Let those men go.

36 And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace.

37 But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.

38 And the serjeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans.

This is all Holy scripture, and this is an example for us. It shows how the Apostle Paul dealt with things, and I believe we should do likewise. As for the abortion issue, how do you know people aren't speaking out against fornication? I have always spoken out against it, and I have also protested at abortion mills. I had a girl come up to my group when we were protesting, and did something similar to what you did. We were not speechless. We were nice to her, but we pointed out that what was taking place there was the murder of innocent children. We offered her assistance, but didn't make any apologies for our actions in speaking out against the slaughter of babies. I make no apologies now for standing up for innocent life, and no, I don't buy into that garbage about needing to change hearts rather than to speak out against abortion.