Love: Judgment vs Non-judgment

[nebula]

But how can we expect a change in heart from those who do not have the Spirit of God living inside of them?

I recall a testimony of a former lesbian. For some reason she wanted to go to church, and the church embraced her, even letting her participate in the bell choir. Over time she felt conviction (not condemnation) of her lifestyle and asked her partner to leave. She did later give her life to Jesus. Bit by bit she walked out of her old lifestyle and began, as she described it, discovered what it is to be a woman - pantyhose, make-up and all. And she loves it!

If the church had hounded her with how sinful she was or her behavior was, this would not have happened.

[~candice~]

But how can we expect a change in heart from those who do not have the Spirit of God living inside of them?

I recall a testimony of a former lesbian. For some reason she wanted to go to church, and the church embraced her, even letting her participate in the bell choir. Over time she felt conviction (not condemnation) of her lifestyle and asked her partner to leave. She did later give her life to Jesus. Bit by bit she walked out of her old lifestyle and began, as she described it, discovered what it is to be a woman - pantyhose, make-up and all. And she loves it!

If the church had hounded her with how sinful she was or her behavior was, this would not have happened.

Neb, Paul's letter I just quoted was written to the church, not seekers.

Jesus hung with tax collectors, prostitutes, the woman at the well...

[Guest LadyC]

But -

It is God's kindness/goodness that leads us to repentance. (Romans 2:4)

I have personal experience with people being turned off from God by being hounded with how bad a sinner they are.

yeah. it kinda makes me think of how often i see people downtown at fremont street on a weekend holding signs that say "you're going to HELL!" like THAT is going to make anyone want to put down their drink and repent!

[Joshua-777]

OK, I often have problems with words, so if anyone has better words for the title of this thread, I'll change it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since aspects of this have become hot-topics lately, I thought maybe we could discuss the principles of this.

(And again, if the positions can be worded better, I'll be happy to change it.)

One side claims that calling sin "sin," not compromising, not letting people get away with embracing sin in the name of tolerance, etc. is love.

The other side claims that accepting people as they are and not "throwing stones", etc. is love.

I'm wondering if there is a balance between them - but uncertain of what that balance is.

Thoughts? Comments? etc.?

This is something that i've struggled finding a balance between.

An unbeliever will not understand a need to turn from sin, unless they experience the love of our Savior. It is important for believers to not comprimise with sin, to be holy and separate from this world, but we also must remember it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict of sin (John 16:8). When we hold the sins higher than the person, and our judgements for sin are seen over our love for the person, we are useless. We need to love like Jesus. Jesus adressed personal sin in a loving way. We must be gentle when adressing sin, and not make the person the enemy. We need to try to lead each other out of sin, for other believers, yes it is important we address their sin humbly and gently, Matt 18 gives an order how the church should address sin within the body, but it's not the same as adressing sin outside the body. We should go in private and gently talk to them, if they dont listen, take three witnesses, if they still don't listen bring it to the church, then if they still don't listen, let him be an unbeliever and a taxcollecter. How did Jesus treat taxcollecters?

The biggest witness we have to adress sin is our own lives. When I worked at wallmart, I was door greating and an attractive co-worker walked by, a guy who was a salvation army bell ringer was checking her out, and made a comment to me about her butt. I said that I wasn't interesting in looking and he looked at me really strange. He asked why and I said because Jesus said if you look at a woman in lust your commiting adultry. He said "Oh I see, Your religious!" I simply replied, "No, I'm just tight with God, I love Him and lust will hinder my relationship with him." The next day I was working, He came up to me and said, "I'm struggling with lust" and asked me questions about Jesus. In that case I stood righteously and used my conduct as an example, Holy Spirit then convicted him about the sin.

We spend way too much time trying to convict the world of sin rather than showing them why we stay away from sin. We also make a measure of sin, like how close can someone get to sin before it becomes sin, or making excuses for sin, when if we are pursuing a deeper relationship with Jesus the focus changes, we avoid sin to be closer to Him.

[nebula]

Thank-you for that, Joshua!

[Smalcald]

But -

It is God's kindness/goodness that leads us to repentance. (Romans 2:4)

I have personal experience with people being turned off from God by being hounded with how bad a sinner they are.

Hmmm, yeah I know what you mean. But I think it is both, I think both are totally needed.

The Word of God should make people uncomfortable about their life, it makes me uncomfortable all of the time. Some will indeed reject that and find offense, but I think that is okay that is the purpose of the Law to show us our sin. However when we come to the house of healing we should also be given the Gospel, the fact that we find forgiveness for all of our sins every single one of them. The problem is that without the knowledge of how sinful we are, we won't necessarily repent or even be sorry for our sins. Today in our culture many people do not know what sin is in many cases.

Christ Himself both forgave and pointed out sin. To those who were truly sorry for their sins He forgave them, for the prideful who felt they had no sin, He called out their sin to pierce their pride. They didn't like to hear it, but they needed to hear it.

Now I do not think this is the role of every Christian. I think it is primarily the role the pastor, deacons and elders and it must be done without prejudice and usually from the pulpit to the entire congregation.

In some rare instances of blatant unrepentent public sin, the pastor will have to address it with the individual privately.

[Guest yod]

OK, I often have problems with words, so if anyone has better words for the title of this thread, I'll change it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since aspects of this have become hot-topics lately, I thought maybe we could discuss the principles of this.

(And again, if the positions can be worded better, I'll be happy to change it.)

One side claims that calling sin "sin," not compromising, not letting people get away with embracing sin in the name of tolerance, etc. is love.

The other side claims that accepting people as they are and not "throwing stones", etc. is love.

I'm wondering if there is a balance between them - but uncertain of what that balance is.

Thoughts? Comments? etc.?

This is something that i've struggled finding a balance between.

An unbeliever will not understand a need to turn from sin, unless they experience the love of our Savior. It is important for believers to not comprimise with sin, to be holy and separate from this world, but we also must remember it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict of sin (John 16:8). When we hold the sins higher than the person, and our judgements for sin are seen over our love for the person, we are useless. We need to love like Jesus. Jesus adressed personal sin in a loving way. We must be gentle when adressing sin, and not make the person the enemy. We need to try to lead each other out of sin, for other believers, yes it is important we address their sin humbly and gently, Matt 18 gives an order how the church should address sin within the body, but it's not the same as adressing sin outside the body. We should go in private and gently talk to them, if they dont listen, take three witnesses, if they still don't listen bring it to the church, then if they still don't listen, let him be an unbeliever and a taxcollecter. How did Jesus treat taxcollecters?

The biggest witness we have to adress sin is our own lives. When I worked at wallmart, I was door greating and an attractive co-worker walked by, a guy who was a salvation army bell ringer was checking her out, and made a comment to me about her butt. I said that I wasn't interesting in looking and he looked at me really strange. He asked why and I said because Jesus said if you look at a woman in lust your commiting adultry. He said "Oh I see, Your religious!" I simply replied, "No, I'm just tight with God, I love Him and lust will hinder my relationship with him." The next day I was working, He came up to me and said, "I'm struggling with lust" and asked me questions about Jesus. In that case I stood righteously and used my conduct as an example, Holy Spirit then convicted him about the sin.

We spend way too much time trying to convict the world of sin rather than showing them why we stay away from sin. We also make a measure of sin, like how close can someone get to sin before it becomes sin, or making excuses for sin, when if we are pursuing a deeper relationship with Jesus the focus changes, we avoid sin to be closer to Him.

[hwyangel]

The difference is Judgment vs Discernment.

Judgment says, "You should not think/act/or speak in this way."

Discernment says, "I should not think/act/ or speak in this way."

Judgment tries to change another.

Discernment is changing myself.

[Nyoka]

I agree that we do need to tell people about sin AND about the grace, love, mercy and forgiveness of God. The sinner needs to hear the truth about their sin but with the view of God's love, grace and mercy in mind so that they are convicted and turn to God. The believer in sin needs to hear the truth about the sin with the view of restoring that person to God through God's love, grace and mercy. I have been on the recieiving end of condemnation from the church. When I left my abusive husband the church we were in cut my children and I off because I had left my husband. They told me I needed to acknowledge the sin I was in and go back to my husband. The church knew that to go back put us in danger and they still wanted us to go back. Unbelievers on the other hand helped me to leave town and to find a safe place to hide out from my ex husband. They provided the support that the church should have. I had only been a christian for a few years when this happened and I seriously considered leaving God because of it. The town I moved to had a church that I started going to. They couldn't have been more different. They knew my history but welcomed my children and I with open arms. They showed us love and support. They didn't try to break through the wall I had up, due to the bad experience, but they did show the love and care I needed and that broke through it. As a side note months later I found out that the ones who helped me get away had a strong feeling that they had to move me out by a certain date. They couldn't understand why but felt compelled to follow the feeling. I then found out that if I had stayed one more day my ex husband had planned to kill us, while we slept, so we wouldn't leave him. This was the final conformation I needed to fully let go to God and tear that wall down. This experience taught me that if i tell anyone about sin then I need to look at myself first and see that my sins are just as bad in God's sight as others sins and also I need to look at them and see them as God does through love, grace and mercy with the view of bringing/restoring them to God.

[nebula]

Wow, Nyoka.

Thank-you for sharing that.