Free Grace Theology Vs. Lordship Salvation

[Byron A]

I am afraid this topic is much deeper then your explanations. If your goal is to bring out the different ideas, then the discussion is worthwhile, but if we are to choose between one or the other, your explanations leaves me with no other choice but to not choose either.

I only gave a brief definition of each term. If you would like to do more in depth study, I suggest googling each term and reading the arguments for and against each position. I am of the opinion that every view of salvation fits into one of these two definitions, as I have yet to come across a view that doesn't. I just added the third option for completeness.

From what you say, nobody can ever choose to turn from Christ after accepting Him as their Savior. On the other hand, when Christ said "Not everyone who says to Me,

[Byron A]

Wow, the message went clear over your head.

In the real account, what did Jesus tell the rich young he must do?

Lets examine the real accounts, shall we?

In Matthew's Gospel (Matthew 19:16, KJV), Jesus is asked, "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

In the Mark version (Mark 10:17, KJV), Jesus is asked, "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" In Luke's version (Luke 18:18 KJV), it is the same.

In all three instances, the man is asking what he can do to be saved. As we all know, however, this is impossible. By our own merits we cannot be saved. As Isaiah said, our works are like menstrual rags. They are so filthy, unable of having any kind of redeeming value.

Jesus responds by keeping with his question. What can the young man do to merit his own salvation? We all know the answer to that, too, don't we? We must live a perfect and sinless life by never having disobeyed a single one of God's commandments. This is what Jesus said, isn't it? He gave a list of actions that the man must do and obey.

Of course, we all know it is impossible to perfectly obey all of God's commandments. So this route of earning salvation is impossible. Anyone who comes to the alter wondering how they can earn their own salvation is doomed to the same result, one of frustration when they realize that this route to salvation is impossible. Until they have a change of mind (that is what repentance means) and realize that all the work has been done by Christ for our salvation already and we need to only accept it on faith, salvation is not possible for such people.

Egads! No wonder the message went over your head.

Let us look at the full account. I'll use Matthew's version:

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

18 He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "

20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

You see, it shows from the response he gave that he knew his obedience wasn't cutting it.

Then it shows that Jesus did not leave him with the Commandments, but instructed him on what he really needed to do.

The story I gave is how Jesus would have responded via free grace theology (as I understand the argument). But what Jesus actually responded with was a call to lay down his old life and take up a new life of becoming a disciple of Jesus (that's what, "Follow Me," means).

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point. this man is trying to earn his salvation. He wants to know how to do so. Jesus tells him how to earn his own salvation: Be perfect. As we all know, that is impossible.

[nebula]

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point. this man is trying to earn his salvation. He wants to know how to do so. Jesus tells him how to earn his own salvation: Be perfect. As we all know, that is impossible.

Wait - are you saying that Jesus told the man a lie?

[enoob57]

Depth and riches of His Salvation exceed definition but I voted other for this reason-> When I received repentance from sins He was Lord and God at that time and it was to Him that I cried out to forgive me of that which I was guilty through and through for I was sin... It was free for I had nothing to offer Him for all that I was ... well ...was already condemned by Him... and as His rightful place as Lord and Master grows inside of me new dimensions open unto my understanding of freedom in service to Him Who is Worthy to receive all that I am for all that I am is brought about by Him... You see when one can lay down in green pastures even in the desert of this world-> His promises are already substanced in that heart for it being here is already as there

Heb 11:1-6

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Faith at the Dawn of History

(Gen 4:1-16; 5:18-24; 6:5-8:22)

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

NKJV

Only Christ can place the value of that which He as bled and died for ->for the Price of payment has exceeded my abilities to evaluate.... How exactly does one repay God for God's Son...

Then knowing the price exceeds all understanding how do we justify keeping any of ourselves for ourselves-> sanctification is turning that which is His already back to His use and glory....

As I decrease myself the more He is within me in filling of His Spirit and that is Life and Its abundance here... Perhaps it is the path of Enoch... as He, The Lord, increases: His presence,

Grace, Person, Radiance of Being, is worth more than all else He has made or given in Holding of Him... The Love is truly the eternities The God of unbounded measure Praise all below,"Praise Him above ye Heavenly Host Praise Father Son and Holy Ghost"

Love Steven

[Byron A]

Free Grace Theology teaches that grace is free. Once accepted through faith, nothing can be done to lose it. Salvation is eternal. One's works, before during or after salvation, has no bearing upon one's salvation. However, sanctification is required in order to have a fruitful relationship with God in this life, as well as to earn rewards in the Eternal Kingdom. Remember Jesus saying, "Store up treasures for yourself in heaven"?

<snip>

Personally, I believe that Lordship Salvation adds a requirement to salvation that the Bible does not, and that is good works. Of course, good works should be strived for. But I believe that salvation is not dependent upon it. Instead, we earn rewards for our obedience to God.

How do you handle such verses as:

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

(Acts 2)

To "repent" means to have a change of mind. We read our own views into the text when we say that to repent means to forsake one's sins. So in the context of the gospel, what does it mean to change one's mind? It means to change your mind about being able to do it on your own, and to realize that you need a Savior who has already paid your debt in full.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. (Matthew 16:24)

I believe this refers to sanctification, which is necessary if you want a right relationship with God here on Earth, and you want the rewards promised you in Paul's epistles in the Kingdom of Heaven. However, salvation is not a reward (it is a free gift), so salvation is not what is in view here when Jesus says this.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ; (Romans 10:9)

I think this gets to the crux of the issue. Free Grace theology and Lordship Salvation each understand Jesus' role as Lord differently. In Lordship Salvation, Jesus being Lord means that you totally submit your entire life to Jesus Christ. In Free Grace Theology, Jesus is Lord by virtue of who He is, the Son of God. Nothing on our part is required in order for Jesus to be Lord. Its like being a King. If someone breaks a law and disobeys the King in a monarchy, does the King stop being the King? No, the King is still king.

It is because Jesus is Lord that He is able to also be our Savior.

[Byron A]

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point. this man is trying to earn his salvation. He wants to know how to do so. Jesus tells him how to earn his own salvation: Be perfect. As we all know, that is impossible.

Wait - are you saying that Jesus told the man a lie?

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

[Guest man]

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point. this man is trying to earn his salvation. He wants to know how to do so. Jesus tells him how to earn his own salvation: Be perfect. As we all know, that is impossible.

If you spent as much time actually reading the bible instead of other people's words, you wouldn't make statements like that.

Matthew 5

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Genesis 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 Timothy 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

James 1

4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Job 8

20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

Revelation 3

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

[mizzdy]

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point. this man is trying to earn his salvation. He wants to know how to do so. Jesus tells him how to earn his own salvation: Be perfect. As we all know, that is impossible.

Wait - are you saying that Jesus told the man a lie?

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

Well for heaven sakes! none of us will ever have salvation then! Perfect? perfect? I mean really? Yeshua was perfect because He was God in the flesh, He was perfect because He kept Torah perfectly because He is the Word in the flesh. I am so grateful that He accepts me with all my flaws, I am grateful that He accepts me as I struggle to walk in His perfect ways, I am grateful that I can strive to emulate Him in all ways but know that when I fail He is there to pick me back up and set me back on His path and forgive me when I confess my sins to Him.

To "repent" means to have a change of mind. We read our own views into the text when we say that to repent means to forsake one's sins. So in the context of the gospel, what does it mean to change one's mind? It means to change your mind about being able to do it on your own, and to realize that you need a Savior who has already paid your debt in full.

Repent, teshuvah, to change directions, make an about face and return to Him. We forsake our own way of doing things and return to His ways and follow them and yes knowing we cannot do anything apart from Him and His instructions for our lives. And you are correct Byron many do read into scripture what they want to see and hear and not what He is saying to us.

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest man]

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

He actually did say that.

Matthew 19

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

[Byron A]

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point. this man is trying to earn his salvation. He wants to know how to do so. Jesus tells him how to earn his own salvation: Be perfect. As we all know, that is impossible.

If you spent as much time actually reading the bible instead of other people's words, you wouldn't make statements like that.

Matthew 5

48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Genesis 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 Timothy 3

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

James 1

4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Job 8

20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

Revelation 3

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

I am talking about being perfect on our own. The only way for us to become perfect in reality is by having faith in Jesus Christ. Like an old pastor of mine used to say, When God looks at us, it is through Christ-colored glasses. We are perfect only because Christ was perfect.