Can you loose your salvation once you are given it? Can you surrender

[Fez]

Once again I will make a comment that if it is your desire to remain in the Lord, even though you sin, your salvation cannot be taken away. Yet, if you, in your heart, decide to not follow the Lord, then you have given His gift back to Him and rejected His salvation. There is no OSAS.

Well it is true there is no OSAS but that is because it is a made up doctrinal/label misapplied to the doctrine of Eternal Security.

There is not ONE example in the NT of a authentic Christian rejecting Christ and deciding to walk away from salvation. Not ONE example. There are passages about apostasy, but apostates are not genuine Christians who decided to reject Christ. That is a self-contradicting concept. Apostates are people who assent to and acknowledge the truth, and even live within the framework of the truth, but returnn to their old way of life and end up rejecting the truth altogether. Most of the time, apostates are people who live within the framework of the external Christian communnity. They go to church, and even participate as "Christians" in the rituals and perhaps even sing in the choir, and teach a class, but end up, as Jesus would say, having no root in themselves" fall back into a sinful life.

Yes, we have had this discussion many times before, but I still do not believe that someone could turn from, or fall away from, something they never had in the first place. One must belong to a belief if they are to turn from or fall from that belief. TO say that someone never believed means just that, they never accepted it so there is nothing to turn from.

I am not talking about turning a way from a belief. I am talking about people who acknowledge yet turn away from the truth. Apostates are not people who turn from a faith or belief, but turn from what they know to be true. They prefer their sin over the truth. They don't "believe" in the same sense that you and I believe and they never did. They assent to the truth, but they don't receive it. It is possible for unbelievers to reject the truth in full knowledge of it. Apostates never really fully commit to being a Christian. They might have religion for a while, but the cannot bring themselves to commit and they end up falling back into their old ways, having never really made a decision for Christ.

So, you are saying that these are just pew warmers playing Christian? They are just following religion without making any true commitment to Christ, where their lives show this during the week? I ask this because we will know them by their fruit, will we not? Let's go with this, and to ensure you, I am seriously asking. What really is the difference between someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God, died and rose again, but play the part and does not completely turn their life over to Christ (the pew warmer) and someone who wants to live for Christ, but can't give up an addiction? Where would you draw that line? Are either really saved?

There is a very big difference. The first is simply noncommittal. There is no struggle. They prefer their sin, ulimately. They try to be "good" and "religious" but in the end, they return to their sin, because they enjoy it.

That is entirely different from an additct who struggles and stumbles in a since desire to follow the Lord. I think a reasonable person can tell the difference.

So, by your own words, you feel you have the right to judge that the first person really didn't want to make a commitment, though this person may of really believed he was making a commitment, while the second obviously wants to commit, but does not have the strength to do so, and if someone does not understand, they they are not a reasonable person? How is it that we now have been given the right to judge a persons salvation, walk in Christ, or if they have the capacity to understand salvation? Yes, we may know their fruits, but we do not know their heart.

Those who feel that if someone turns from Christ, that they were never His in the first place, is in fact judging this persons salvation. It makes it easier for them to use this answer then to accept the fact that we are to be on guard against those who wish to turn us away from Christ. It is easier to say that a new born Christian who was not strong enough to walk by themselves, but got turn by false teachings, was not really a new born Christian in the first place, then it is to accept the fact that unless we are on guard against subtle lies that can destroy, we too may fall.

The bible tells us that there will be a falling away, yet nobody can tell me how someone can fall away from something they never had? How can they fall away from the body if they were never part of the body, but just bystanders, hanging around those who were really part of the body. If they are not part of the body, then they can not fall from the body, and the passage in 2 Thess 2:3 makes no sense at all. I purpose that they were part of the body, but was turned away by false teachings, to follow another gospel and another god.

What is the Whole Armor of God for if it is not to protect ourselves against the wicked one, who is roaming about to destroy? Who is he out to destroy? It surely isn't the unsaved, for they are his already. He is trying to destroy the saved ... but how is this possible if we can't ever give up our salvation if we are in Him? How can he destroy us then?

Even Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, but what is there to be fearful of? What death was James talking about and who is it that is among you that sinned? Are all these not saved either?

I purpose that it is far easier to point to a person that has turned from Christ and label them as never being saved in the first place then it is to accept that through our own free will, we can choose to turn from Christ at any time. We are to walk with Him in all we do, and if we refuse, we also are placing ourselves out there to be destroyed by Satan who will tell us a cunning lie, enough to make it sound like truth, as he did with Eve. We are to guard ourselves against the principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places, or we will fall.

You are right by saying that scripture does not name one person in the NT that has fallen away, yet scripture does warn us repeatably about this. Even Jesus did not name names, but He did name congregations.

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place

[Guest]

Call

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalms 139:23-24

Trust

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6

Drink

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

____________

What Kind Of Love Is This

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

A New Child

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:21-23

A New Wonder

Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. Ezekiel 16:8-12

A New Love

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

What Kind

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Of Love

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:3-5

Is This

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isaiah 53:6-7

Sippy Cup

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11

Any One?

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

[oak]

(Replying to post 61)

First of all Shiloh, I am not sweeping anything under the rug. If you would have read my second post you would have seen that I stated my apology!!! Now if you want to argue then I will say my first response was caused by what I feel threads like this one cause (its due more to omission and oversimplification). I have spoken to more then a few Christians who feel that once they have accepted Christ, their work is done. I ask them if they pray, if they repent etc

[Guest]

PS Sorry Fresno Joe. if I didn't take in account what you so beautifully quoted to me.

Dear Oak

I'm Honored To Call You Brother

And Daily Pray For God's Comfort Over You As You Go Through Your Trials

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Replying to post 61)

First of all Shiloh, I am not sweeping anything under the rug. If you would have read my second post you would have seen that I stated my apology!!!

Yeah, you said you were sorry if you offended anyone. That is not the same as saying you are sorry for making presumptuous judgments about people on this thread that you had no right to make. You made a bunch of false and presumptuous accusations that you don't want to be accountable for and thinking you can brush it away with a once sentence "apology" tucked at the end of a post.

Now if you want to argue then I will say my first response was caused by what I feel threads like this one cause (it

[nChrist]

Salvation is a totally unique and once-in-a-lifetime event. One can only be Saved Once, and the work is done by God - not men. Going to church or calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you a Christian. In fact, many self-proclaiming Christians aren't Christians at all and never have been. This is just the facts and isn't a personal attack against anyone. A TRULY SAVED person is BORN-AGAIN from ABOVE and becomes a NEW CREATURE in CHRIST. At the instant of Salvation, the Holy Spirit of God takes residence in that person's heart and SEALS it as a PURCHASED POSSESSION belonging to God. No combination of powers in the universe can break the SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Forget about man's denominations, tags, and labels - God makes it simple - you are either SAVED or LOST. Again, at the moment of Salvation, many of God's PROMISES go into effect right then - no waiting period - no probation. Salvation is NOT on the installment plan - it's FULL - FREE - a GIFT from God - and most definitely ETERNAL. God never breaks a single PROMISE, and the WORK of Salvation was COMPLETELY PERFECTLY by Jesus Christ on the Cross. Again, at the moment of Salvation, a person is QUICKENED (translated) INTO the BODY OF CHRIST - a CHURCH not made with human hands. Once Saved - Always Saved - YES - Kept by the Power of God Himself.

Like it or not, many people have emotional experiences that are not Salvation. Answering countless altar calls or being baptized numerous times does NOT mean that a person was Saved. It's a matter of the HEART, and God knows them who are His. Forget about rituals, ceremonies, and other things of man - Salvation is between an individual and God. Remember, many things happen at the moment of Salvation - certainly including PROMISES from God. God keeps all of His PROMISES most perfectly.

[oak]

Knowledgeable guy = regular text

Sinner = Italics

Quote

Replying to post 61)

First of all Shiloh, I am not sweeping anything under the rug. If you would have read my second post you would have seen that I stated my apology!!!

Yeah, you said you were sorry if you offended anyone. That is not the same as saying you are sorry for making presumptuous judgments about people on this thread that you had no right to make. You made a bunch of false and presumptuous accusations that you don't want to be accountable for and thinking you can brush it away with a once sentence "apology" tucked at the end of a post.

That is your subjective view and it is incorrect. Further, it

[luke22ministries]

Hi Guys,

Whoooo. Let's take a step back here. Threads like this one are meant for great biblical debate on very important issues. Each one of the threads that I start are with the intent of providing discussion about material that is often hard for Christians to talk about. What we read in the bible? How we take what we read? Where are we getting that from and how do we practice it in our lives. This is a very necessary debate in the Christian community. "Can you lose your Salvation" is argued by theologians and pastors alike. I began the post based on the article I wrote. My view is this. It is not possible to lose your salvation or to surrender it. However, sin has consequences and God in no way shields you from those if you decide to live in sin. Does a believer surrender salvation for an extra marital affair? No. However, can they surrender their wife/husband and get cleaned out in a divorce. Yup. Sure can. The list goes on. My view is that Christians are chided not to go back to a former life of sin after knowing the truth. Thats just my take.

(Replying to post 61)

First of all Shiloh, I am not sweeping anything under the rug. If you would have read my second post you would have seen that I stated my apology!!! Now if you want to argue then I will say my first response was caused by what I feel threads like this one cause (it

[luke22ministries]

I hope that you guys will have the chance to check out the article on which this thread was written. In it, I argue this point regarding salvation, sin and I do give some personal examples in my own life. If you get the chance to read it (if you dont wish to do that, please feel free to continue with the threaded conversations here) please let me know if you agree with the points made or not.

http://www.examiner.com/christianity-in-west-palm-beach/dear-fearful-is-it-possible-to-loose-your-salvation-read-on

[OneLight]

I hope that you guys will have the chance to check out the article on which this thread was written. In it, I argue this point regarding salvation, sin and I do give some personal examples in my own life. If you get the chance to read it (if you dont wish to do that, please feel free to continue with the threaded conversations here) please let me know if you agree with the points made or not.

http://www.examiner.com/christianity-in-west-palm-beach/dear-fearful-is-it-possible-to-loose-your-salvation-read-on

Since you offer answers, do you think Jesus was only bluffing or does He really mean that those who do not obey, by their own choice, will have their name removed?

Revelation 3

The Dead Church

And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: