Dr Thomas Ice - Imminency and the Any -Moment Rapture

[rjp34652]

 

 

Sorry, it was PAUL that first wrote of the rapture. And Christian writers have written of it ever since. It is right there in our bibles for anyone to read.....just as salvation is. Many will not believe in the simple plan of salvation, and many will not believe in the rapture.

I am sure God will accomidate those who do not believe in the rapture - I don't think God will ever go against the human will.. He gave us the  right of choice. So I believe anyone who chooses to stay behind will be left behind. I choose to escape all these things. Anyway, I don't want to miss the wedding and supper in heaven. The pretrib rapture is the only way to get there, outside of losing one's head. I think this whole thing comes down to a matter of choice. I choose to beleive what Paul wrote.

 

Lamad

 

The post above has several glaring literate errors, logical errors and theological errors as well as a major moral error.

 

First, St. Paul did not write about the rapture.  Strictly speaking the rapture is never mentioned in Biblical text at all.  For those who failed to read my post - here it is again. 

  The rapture ideology was created by John Nelson Darby, along with a legion of other false doctrines and ideologies in the mid-19th century (Mr. Darwin is also included in this group.)  The point of occult influence in Darby's theology hasn't been discussed at all here because the truth of the doctrine's historical orgina have been dismissed out of hand.  No one who is caught up in this lie can free themselves of it.  It is NOT Biblical at all!  The rapture ideology was further developed and published in the early twentieth century in a series of 12 tracts (each tract is the size of the NYC phone book -  I've held them in my hands) called THE FUNDAMENTALS.  Those who adhere to the precepts of Christianity written there are called Fundamentalists. That's where the term came from.

 

Do your homework, dear reader, unless of course you are afraid of learning the truth.

 

  The logical flaws in rapture fiction is that the concept of an early retirement from earthly life is not even suggested in the Bible, except as a form of punishment for disobedience to God.  Do you really want to leave earth before your time?  It is a measure of unrepentant sin for this to happen to you.   Do a study on it and you'll find the truth.  It is not God's intent that any believer be robbed of his or her life that has been ordained before the throne of heaven.

 

It was written in the post above that "I do not believe that God will ever go against the human will."  This is humanist philosophy and does not appear anywhere in the Bible.  Anywhere.  The apostles preached the cross and that means the sovereignty of God is first and foremost above all that the human desires and wishes.  Jesus said that unless a man is willing to take up his cross and follow Christ he is not worthy of the Kingdom of God.  This means WE are the servents of Christ.  He is not our slave.  Is God's will above all or is man's will above all?   Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.  That means HIS will is above all.  Stating that human will is sovereign is heresy as far as Christianity is concerned.  It appears nowhere in the Bible at all.

 

Do your homework, unless you are afraid of learning the truth.

 

Finally this bit of rubbish was written;

"He gave us the  right of choice. So I believe anyone who chooses to stay behind will be left behind. I choose to escape all these things."

 

Notice first of all how many times the writer has written 'I'.  I, I, I.  Is this what Christ died for?  I?  First of all, noone has the right to determine what God will or will not do.  Second, and this is the nut of the rapture heresy, no one can choose anything about it.

 

Let me write that again for those who misunderstand.  No one can choose anything about the rapture fantasy apart from believing a lie or not.   Believing in the fantasy does not make it so, neither will one be able to determine whether one stays on the ground or not.  You cannot 'choose' to escape anything apart from suicide or unrepentant disobedience.  Do you really want that?  Sounds like you do.

 

Finally the doctrine of rapture is pure cowardice.  Those who dream of an easy out are those who do not have the stomach for those good things which Our Lord may have prepared for them in life.

 

And God hates a coward.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

[ENOCH2010]

Excellent post rjp

[Montana Marv]

rjp

 

You need to do some homework.   2 Thes 2 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, do not become easily unsettled or alarmed by some report or prophecy .... saying the day of the Lord has already come.  For this day will not come until the rebellion and the man of sin is revealed.

 

This is not talking about the 2nd Coming.  For Christ never set His feet on the Mt of Olives, they would have seen Him.  It had to be about the Harpozo (Rapture), our being gathered to Him.  2 Thes 2:5 - Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Sorry, it was PAUL that first wrote of the rapture. And Christian writers have written of it ever since. It is right there in our bibles for anyone to read.....just as salvation is. Many will not believe in the simple plan of salvation, and many will not believe in the rapture.

I am sure God will accomidate those who do not believe in the rapture - I don't think God will ever go against the human will.. He gave us the  right of choice. So I believe anyone who chooses to stay behind will be left behind. I choose to escape all these things. Anyway, I don't want to miss the wedding and supper in heaven. The pretrib rapture is the only way to get there, outside of losing one's head. I think this whole thing comes down to a matter of choice. I choose to beleive what Paul wrote.

 

Lamad

 

The post above has several glaring literate errors, logical errors and theological errors as well as a major moral error.

 

First, St. Paul did not write about the rapture.  Strictly speaking the rapture is never mentioned in Biblical text at all.  For those who failed to read my post - here it is again. 

  The rapture ideology was created by John Nelson Darby, along with a legion of other false doctrines and ideologies in the mid-19th century (Mr. Darwin is also included in this group.)  The point of occult influence in Darby's theology hasn't been discussed at all here because the truth of the doctrine's historical orgina have been dismissed out of hand.  No one who is caught up in this lie can free themselves of it.  It is NOT Biblical at all!  The rapture ideology was further developed and published in the early twentieth century in a series of 12 tracts (each tract is the size of the NYC phone book -  I've held them in my hands) called THE FUNDAMENTALS.  Those who adhere to the precepts of Christianity written there are called Fundamentalists. That's where the term came from.

 

Do your homework, dear reader, unless of course you are afraid of learning the truth.

 

  The logical flaws in rapture fiction is that the concept of an early retirement from earthly life is not even suggested in the Bible, except as a form of punishment for disobedience to God.  Do you really want to leave earth before your time?  It is a measure of unrepentant sin for this to happen to you.   Do a study on it and you'll find the truth.  It is not God's intent that any believer be robbed of his or her life that has been ordained before the throne of heaven.

 

It was written in the post above that "I do not believe that God will ever go against the human will."  This is humanist philosophy and does not appear anywhere in the Bible.  Anywhere.  The apostles preached the cross and that means the sovereignty of God is first and foremost above all that the human desires and wishes.  Jesus said that unless a man is willing to take up his cross and follow Christ he is not worthy of the Kingdom of God.  This means WE are the servents of Christ.  He is not our slave.  Is God's will above all or is man's will above all?   Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.  That means HIS will is above all.  Stating that human will is sovereign is heresy as far as Christianity is concerned.  It appears nowhere in the Bible at all.

 

Do your homework, unless you are afraid of learning the truth.

 

Finally this bit of rubbish was written;

"He gave us the  right of choice. So I believe anyone who chooses to stay behind will be left behind. I choose to escape all these things."

 

Notice first of all how many times the writer has written 'I'.  I, I, I.  Is this what Christ died for?  I?  First of all, noone has the right to determine what God will or will not do.  Second, and this is the nut of the rapture heresy, no one can choose anything about it.

 

Let me write that again for those who misunderstand.  No one can choose anything about the rapture fantasy apart from believing a lie or not.   Believing in the fantasy does not make it so, neither will one be able to determine whether one stays on the ground or not.  You cannot 'choose' to escape anything apart from suicide or unrepentant disobedience.  Do you really want that?  Sounds like you do.

 

Finally the doctrine of rapture is pure cowardice.  Those who dream of an easy out are those who do not have the stomach for those good things which Our Lord may have prepared for them in life.

 

And God hates a coward.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

 

 

"Strictly speaking the rapture is never mentioned in Biblical text at all."

 

This is just ignorance gone to seed. OF COURSE the word "rapture" cannot be found in scripture. That is a modern word we use to describe the catching away of the bride. Paul put it like this: "we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

 

Perhaps rjp has torn this page from his bible: that may be one reason he cannot find it.

 

  The rapture ideology was created by John Nelson Darby,

 

No, the rapture or catching away was created by God  and the revelation given to Paul.

 

It is NOT Biblical at all!

 

I want to be there when you tell this to Paul.

 

 

  The logical flaws in rapture fiction is that the concept of an early retirement from earthly life is not even suggested in the Bible,

 

AGain, tell this to Paul, since he was the first to write about it. If you deny this part of scritpure, what other parts do you deny? Let me guess:

Acts 1:5, 2:4 and Mark 16:17

 

Do you really want to leave earth before your time?

 

"Leaving earth before your time"  An example of this would be a believer dying of some disease that God promised to heal them of - but they just would not believe it. The rapture will be HIS timing. Does "no man knows the day nor the hour," rign a bell?

 

This is humanist philosophy and does not appear anywhere in the Bible.  Anywhere. It appears nowhere in the Bible at all.

 

hmmm. Just like the rapture does not appear anywhere? Actually, you disagreed with yourself!

 

"Jesus said that unless a man is willing to take up his cross and follow Christ he is not worthy of the Kingdom of God."

 

What if a man is NOT willing? That is what will keep millions out of heaven: they are simply not willing. God will not force anyone to become born again.

 

Matthew 22:3

and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.

 

Matthew 23:37

 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

If someone is not willing, God will not override their will.

 

First of all, noone has the right to determine what God will or will not do.

 

God tells us what He will do in His word: we call them promises. God ALWAYS backs up His promises. Did you never read where God's answers to His promises is always YES?  Or have you torn that page out too?

 

Second, and this is the nut of the rapture heresy, no one can choose anything about it.

 

How many times did Jesus say "watch?"  This is something WE CHOOSE to do. If you choose not to, that only means you are NOT WILLING.

 

No one can choose anything about the rapture fantasy apart from believing a lie or not.   Believing in the fantasy does not make it so, neither will one be able to determine whether one stays on the ground or not.  You cannot 'choose' to escape anything apart from suicide or unrepentant disobedience.

 

This is pure ignorance of the Word of God. First, we CHOOSE to become born again. It is again, our WILL. Sadly, too many WON'T. It is written so a 5th grader could understand it: "we who are alive and remain will be caught up..." What is so difficult for this writer to understand? "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." Again, written so a 5th grader could get it. Does anyone even THINK that God would take someone to heaven against their will? What does Luke say?

 

"Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

There is a flip side to every coin. There is a flip side to many verses in the bible also. The flip side to this verse is that some will NOT BE counted worthy to escape. Readers, do you suppose they might be people that DENY there is an escape?

 

Finally the doctrine of rapture is pure cowardice.  Those who dream of an easy out are those who do not have the stomach for those good things which Our Lord may have prepared for them in life.

 

Rev 13

⁷ It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

 

Does this writer have a clue what "overcome" means? Does this writer believe it is God's will and intent that believers are OVERCOME by Satan? God has told us time and again that we are to overcome Him. But that door will have closed at the pretrib rapture. The WILL OF THE FATHER for this time of the 42 months is that SATAN will overcome through the beast. That means believers will lose their head or take the mark. It is going to be one or the other. It is not being a coward to CHOOSE to escape these things: it is WISDOM. God has made a way of escape. It is His desire and plan that we TAKE this way of escape.

 

So the truth is, if someone is determined to be left behind at the pretrib rapture, they are going AGAINST the will of the Father and the Son. His will is that we escape. His will is that we are willing to go WITH HIM as He takes us to the mansions He has prepared for us.

 

Lamad

Edited June 20, 2013 by iamlamad

[rjp34652]

The fallacies of those who argue in favor of the rapture fantasy are in evidence in the previous posts.  Certain basic tenants of the Christian religion are ignored while the use of propaganda methods is common. 

 

For example, it has not been admitted that the rapture ideology isn't a necessary component to the gospel.  It is claimed to BE gospel.

 

Acceptance or rejection of the doctrine is not necessary for salvation, for edification or for the healthy Christian life.

 

The church in the United States is the only group that still holds to the rapture fantasy for just this reason.  Every other Christian church in every other country has rejected the idea because it's devisive, doesn't edify the body of Christ, isn't logical and doesn't follow the basic assertions of the gospel.  In short, it's an American fantasy created by and for Americans who are gullible enough to swallow it.

 

Second, that scripture is used to justify a false position in a fashion identical to that employed by Paul Goebbels, minister of National Socialist propaganda.

For example, one of the primary methods to force people to believe a propaganda lie is repetition.  The falsehood is repeated over and over and over again, often using scripture to support the notion.  Repetition causes one to believe the argument simply because its repeated.   It has little or nothing to do with truth.  TV advertising uses this ploy often as most of us are aware.  The same commercial for breakfast cereal is repeated for children who do not know that the sugary food they are eating is doing them little or no good at all.   It's also true for the rapture ideology.   Repetition breeds familiarity and familiarity seems to be true.  

 

None who accept the rapture ever seek the true historic source of the doctrine.  Neither do they admit it when its pointed out, for fear that believing it they will fall off the edge of the flat world they inhabit.   It's a lot like the days of Chris Columbus.  Most of the world believed the world was flat, that the universe orbited the earth and that salvation could be had for a price paid to the church priests.  

 

Today we know better.  We know how the real world operates and we know that salvation depends upon the blood of Christ freely given - not paid for to a church priest.  It doesn't hang by the thread of Star Trek - beam me up - fantasy.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....

Edited June 24, 2013 by rjp34652

[enoob57]

There is much more comfort in this song:

1 Thess 4:15-18

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the

coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself

will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of

God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught

up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with

the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
NKJV

Love, Steven

[Montana Marv]

rjp

 

1 Thes 4:16-18 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and left will be caught up (Harpozo - Rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,  And so we will be with the Lord forever.  Therefore encourage each other with these words.

 

The Rapture was taught by Paul.   Therefore encourage each other with these words.  This is an ongoing encouragement - Imminant - Watch and be ready, because you do not know the day your Lord may come.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

The fallacies of those who argue in favor of the rapture fantasy are in evidence in the previous posts.  Certain basic tenants of the Christian religion are ignored while the use of propaganda methods is common. 

 

For example, it has not been admitted that the rapture ideology isn't a necessary component to the gospel.  It is claimed to BE gospel.

 

Acceptance or rejection of the doctrine is not necessary for salvation, for edification or for the healthy Christian life.

 

The church in the United States is the only group that still holds to the rapture fantasy for just this reason.  Every other Christian church in every other country has rejected the idea because it's devisive, doesn't edify the body of Christ, isn't logical and doesn't follow the basic assertions of the gospel.  In short, it's an American fantasy created by and for Americans who are gullible enough to swallow it.

 

Second, that scripture is used to justify a false position in a fashion identical to that employed by Paul Goebbels, minister of National Socialist propaganda.

For example, one of the primary methods to force people to believe a propaganda lie is repetition.  The falsehood is repeated over and over and over again, often using scripture to support the notion.  Repetition causes one to believe the argument simply because its repeated.   It has little or nothing to do with truth.  TV advertising uses this ploy often as most of us are aware.  The same commercial for breakfast cereal is repeated for children who do not know that the sugary food they are eating is doing them little or no good at all.   It's also true for the rapture ideology.   Repetition breeds familiarity and familiarity seems to be true.  

 

None who accept the rapture ever seek the true historic source of the doctrine.  Neither do they admit it when its pointed out, for fear that believing it they will fall off the edge of the flat world they inhabit.   It's a lot like the days of Chris Columbus.  Most of the world believed the world was flat, that the universe orbited the earth and that salvation could be had for a price paid to the church priests.  

 

Today we know better.  We know how the real world operates and we know that salvation depends upon the blood of Christ freely given - not paid for to a church priest.  It doesn't hang by the thread of Star Trek - beam me up - fantasy.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....

 

When I see posttribbers using Matt. 24 and claiming to have found the rapture there - I am reminded of 2 Pet 3:5.  We all know, or should know, we live on planet earth. The dead in Christ are buried under the earth. We are standing on the earth. When Jesus comes for the rapture, whenever it is,  He will gather us from earth. This is just very basic knowledge that everyone knows. But in attempts to prove their theories, posttribbers ignore this basic truth and claim that a gathering from the heavens is Paul's rapture from earth. Yet, you say you know better. Perhaps you need to read Peter's verse again.

 

You say it has nothing to do with the truth, yet there are millions of very good bible students that would disagree with you. The Pretrib raptue IS the truth, but you cannot see it because of preconceived theories. John was sure it was pretrib, because he saw the church in heaven, as a great crowd too large to number, before he ever opened the Day of the Lord or the 70th week. This is truth. It is in perfect agreement with Paul's truth -  that the rapture would be the trigger for the great earthquake as seen at the 6th seal that John tells us will be one of the signs for the start of the Day of the Lord, Again I am reminded of 2 Peter 3:5.

 

Is this a necessary doctrine? It is unless people willfully choose to be left behind. Do you imagine that all believers that are faced with hunger and the threat of losing their head will refuse the mark and lose their head and be saved? I would hope that to be truth, but I fear it will not be; that many will take the mark out of fear. If people choose to be left behind, if they choose to set their own appointment with His wrath, there is little anyone can do but warn them.

 

Question: when Martin Luther posted his thesis onto the door, was that time the "historic source" of what he wrote? In general, the masses did not know it. No, the truth was, it was IN THE WORD OF GOD all the time. but it was not understood as truth, It is the same with Paul's rapture -  it has been there all the time. If you choose to ignore it, there is little anyone can do.

 

Lamad

[missmuffet]

rjp

 

1 Thes 4:16-18 - For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and left will be caught up (Harpozo - Rapture) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,  And so we will be with the Lord forever.  Therefore encourage each other with these words.

 

The Rapture was taught by Paul.   Therefore encourage each other with these words.  This is an ongoing encouragement - Imminant - Watch and be ready, because you do not know the day your Lord may come.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I am watching and I am ready Marv.Yes,it could happen any moment.

[Floatingaxe]

Angels4u - I'm positive.

Besides,if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter. I was probably going to die anyway. WHEN you are proven to be wrong, your whole spiritual life will come crashing down on you - with horrific results.

 

Nonsense. God is our FATHER. His mercy is endless. When He shows His children they are wrong, their spiritual life is strengthened. I don't see Him correcting anyone concerning eschatological views, because He has purposely been vague and delivers the truth in revelatory bits and 'bytes'.

 

As a child of the King, who seeks after Him and only His truth, and has done so for over 50 years, He isn't correcting me of my pre-tribulational views. In fact, He is strengthening them more and more. The only detractors from this view are those like yourself who want to bring condemnation down on everyone who doesn't think just like you. That, friend, is a spirit of rancor, and you need to reel it in, and not give it any place in your life.