Democrat: We Need 'Analysis of How Christian Militants -- Might Br

[jodetoad]

I remember when McVeigh did his thing, a guy in church stood up and said McVeigh was right, had a good reason. The congregation was shocked, and made it clear they did NOT agree.

Maybe white supremacists or nutters like that claim Christianity. I have never met a single person claiming to be Christian that had negative designs for the U.S. Suppose there might be some somewhere.

But Christianity tends to be self-correcting. If churches go off the rails, mostly people leave. If individuals in congregations get wacky, people try to help, if that doesn't work they end up isolated. If we are scripture-based, we simply can't support those ideas.

If people who are wacky, or have bizarre ideologies, also claim Christianity, it seems a stretch to blame the faith rather than the ideology or sick thought processes.

[SavedByGrace1980]

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.

The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is

wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts

they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,

it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...

And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not

warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of

resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as

to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost

in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from

time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

It is its natural manure."

Well, much as I respect Jefferson, I have to beg to differ with his statement I highlighted above. In his day, it was undoubtedly true. I don't really think it is today. With the internet, which I know still isn't necessarily available in every corner of the nation, we now have access to whatever information we want or need. Even in places where the internet is still limited in availability, it is available, even if only at public libraries or the like. The problem is we are much too lazy to bother to go hunt up the truth and to make ourselves "well informed." We rely on popular media to give us whatever version of the truth we want to believe. Or worse, we rely on actors or singers or comedians to tell us what we ought to believe.

That's an interesting take on the Jefferson quote - but I think I look at it a little differently. But I'll allow that I might be reading more into it than he intended.

To me, he's saying that it is inevitable that any government formed by man will devolve into tyranny. Given that, there comes a time when the people have no other recourse than to take up arms against that government (my, that sounds really radical today - but remember that is exactly what he and his countrymen did against the English king - AFTER all other avenues of redress had been exhausted)

Before I comment any further, let me state very clearly that IMO I cannot see any Christian, Biblical support for Christians forming militias. Christ - regarding His first coming - was very clear when He responded to Pilate "My Kingdom is not of this world."

(All bets are off, however, as to what's going to happen when He comes again! PTL!)

But getting back to the Jefferson quote: I think he was talking about what to do when there absolutely IS no other recourse. If he had been some sort of prophet and was able to see how far we've gone from the Republic he envisioned, I wonder what he would say?

Blessings!

-Ed

And let me add to the above - while I don't see Biblical support for militias, I don't see a Scriptural problem with an individual Christian defying a government

After all, isn't that what some German Christians did in Nazi Germany?

Blessings!

-Ed

Edited June 21, 2011 by SavedByGrace1981

[winsomebulldog]

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.

The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is

wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts

they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,

it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...

And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not

warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of

resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as

to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost

in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from

time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

It is its natural manure."

Well, much as I respect Jefferson, I have to beg to differ with his statement I highlighted above. In his day, it was undoubtedly true. I don't really think it is today. With the internet, which I know still isn't necessarily available in every corner of the nation, we now have access to whatever information we want or need. Even in places where the internet is still limited in availability, it is available, even if only at public libraries or the like. The problem is we are much too lazy to bother to go hunt up the truth and to make ourselves "well informed." We rely on popular media to give us whatever version of the truth we want to believe. Or worse, we rely on actors or singers or comedians to tell us what we ought to believe.

That's an interesting take on the Jefferson quote - but I think I look at it a little differently. But I'll allow that I might be reading more into it than he intended.

To me, he's saying that it is inevitable that any government formed by man will devolve into tyranny. Given that, there comes a time when the people have no other recourse than to take up arms against that government (my, that sounds really radical today - but remember that is exactly what he and his countrymen did against the English king - AFTER all other avenues of redress had been exhausted)

Before I comment any further, let me state very clearly that IMO I cannot see any Christian, Biblical support for Christians forming militias. Christ - regarding His first coming - was very clear when He responded to Pilate "My Kingdom is not of this world."

(All bets are off, however, as to what's going to happen when He comes again! PTL!)

But getting back to the Jefferson quote: I think he was talking about what to do when there absolutely IS no other recourse. If he had been some sort of prophet and was able to see how far we've gone from the Republic he envisioned, I wonder what he would say?

Blessings!

-Ed

And let me add to the above - while I don't see Biblical support for militias, I don't see a Scriptural problem with an individual Christian defying a government

After all, isn't that what some German Christians did in Nazi Germany?

Blessings!

-Ed

I have often joked with my husband that if I actually believed people could "roll in their graves" (expression I've heard all my life) then our founding fathers must be spinning like tops at what we've turned this country into.

[MorningGlory]

There are Christian politicians in America who call for their states to leave the U.S. if Obama stays in power. One of which is Rick Perry who some here at Worthy have even shown support fo as President (ironic). These people are not necessarily militants, but the last time states left it caused a civil war and many were charged and executed for treason.

That is not accurate. Perry was talking to reporters and what he actually said was that Texans might get so fed up how the country is being run, they would want to secede from the union. He was not calling for TX to secede. He also said that he saw no reason for TX to do that.

This is true; Perry expressed support for secession in the event things ever got to the point of no return......not for leaving the Union now.

[Guest shiloh357]

There are Christian politicians in America who call for their states to leave the U.S. if Obama stays in power. One of which is Rick Perry who some here at Worthy have even shown support fo as President (ironic). These people are not necessarily militants, but the last time states left it caused a civil war and many were charged and executed for treason.

That is not accurate. Perry was talking to reporters and what he actually said was that Texans might get so fed up how the country is being run, they would want to secede from the union. He was not calling for TX to secede. He also said that he saw no reason for TX to do that.

This is true; Perry expressed support for secession in the event things ever got to the point of no return......not for leaving the Union now.

I stand corrected on Perry. My general point stands.

Well your general point is that there are other "Christian" politicians calling for their states to leave the US if Obama stays in power. Who are these "Christian" politicians and to what extent are they "Christians?" What kind of politicians are they? Alvin Green of S. Carolina was a "politician."

[eph215]

There are Christian politicians in America who call for their states to leave the U.S. if Obama stays in power. One of which is Rick Perry who some here at Worthy have even shown support fo as President (ironic). These people are not necessarily militants, but the last time states left it caused a civil war and many were charged and executed for treason.

That is not accurate. Perry was talking to reporters and what he actually said was that Texans might get so fed up how the country is being run, they would want to secede from the union. He was not calling for TX to secede. He also said that he saw no reason for TX to do that.

This is true; Perry expressed support for secession in the event things ever got to the point of no return......not for leaving the Union now.

I stand corrected on Perry. My general point stands.

Well your general point is that there are other "Christian" politicians calling for their states to leave the US if Obama stays in power. Who are these "Christian" politicians and to what extent are they "Christians?" What kind of politicians are they? Alvin Green of S. Carolina was a "politician."

Of course I can not know the EXTENT of another's Christianity.

But I know that here in Tennessee such politicians exist. And yes, they are Christians at election time anyway.

Here is one example from our last election....

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/23/tennessee-republican-floats-secession/?fbid=PLVyZfAjm4w

Rep. Zach Wamp, one of three candidates seeking the GOP gubernatorial nomination in Tennessee, told Hotline OnCall that Perry had the right idea. Wamp argued that mandates forced on the states by the Obama administration's health care bill have put secession on the table.

"I hope that the American people will go to the ballot box in 2010 and 2012 so that states are not forced to consider separation from this government," Wamp told Hotline OnCall Friday.

I have found that the less of a platform a given candidate has then the more likely you are to hear things like that. I also think that people have woken up to 'Christians' as a demographic group and now we have a lot of pandering to 'Christian' this and 'Christian' that in an effort to drum up support for whatever they have to offer.

I saw a 'Christian' CD the other day that did not mention Jesus or God once in any of the songs (but one has lyrics like 'you got bang like a firework, you look good in my T-shirts'). Guess they couldn't make it in secular music and decided to give the gospel circuit a try. What is sad is that parents will let their kids buy this drivel because it was in a Christian store.

And from what I have read of Zach Wamp the only person disappointed by his loss was him.

[Guest shiloh357]

There are Christian politicians in America who call for their states to leave the U.S. if Obama stays in power. One of which is Rick Perry who some here at Worthy have even shown support fo as President (ironic). These people are not necessarily militants, but the last time states left it caused a civil war and many were charged and executed for treason.

That is not accurate. Perry was talking to reporters and what he actually said was that Texans might get so fed up how the country is being run, they would want to secede from the union. He was not calling for TX to secede. He also said that he saw no reason for TX to do that.

This is true; Perry expressed support for secession in the event things ever got to the point of no return......not for leaving the Union now.

I stand corrected on Perry. My general point stands.

Well your general point is that there are other "Christian" politicians calling for their states to leave the US if Obama stays in power. Who are these "Christian" politicians and to what extent are they "Christians?" What kind of politicians are they? Alvin Green of S. Carolina was a "politician."

Of course I can not know the EXTENT of another's Christianity.

But I know that here in Tennessee such politicians exist. And yes, they are Christians at election time anyway.

Here is one example from our last election....

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/23/tennessee-republican-floats-secession/?fbid=PLVyZfAjm4w

Rep. Zach Wamp, one of three candidates seeking the GOP gubernatorial nomination in Tennessee, told Hotline OnCall that Perry had the right idea. Wamp argued that mandates forced on the states by the Obama administration's health care bill have put secession on the table.

"I hope that the American people will go to the ballot box in 2010 and 2012 so that states are not forced to consider separation from this government," Wamp told Hotline OnCall Friday.

Welll, that makes my point. There are no genuine calls for states to secede from the US. Wamp is agreeing with Perry, but Perry was not calling for a secession in the sense that you previously portrayed it, and it fair to assume that Wamp is agreeing with what Perry said, not with the values you previously assigned to their comments. From the way you spoke, I would expect you to come up with a list of politicians calling for a secession from the US.

In the civil war secession had to do with states rights vs. the Constitution. Now we have a case where it is a matter of states being able to remain solvent and consdering options motivated by self-preservation in the face of a president and an administration who are bent on continuing self-destructive economic policies that have produced even more unemployment and have us speeding toward another great depression. So separating economically from this administration that cannot or will not pull its head out of its collective rear-end may end up being a choice many states have to make just stay solvent.

[nebula]

There's been a lot of talk about states seceding - as a solution to the government becoming more tyrannical.

Why is this such a horrible thing in and of itself?

And what does this have to do with "Christian militants"?

[oldzimm]

So if the Federal Government is hell bent on going against the US Constitution, that all the states agree on when they came into the Union, isn't that reason enough to secede? When the Federal Government goes against the Constitution, isn't that like breaking a contract?

When the Federal Government doesn't want to go by the rules that all states agreed to, I'm all in favor of states pulling out. Just the thought of state seceding should give the Feds a wake-up call.

[Fez]

At a congressional hearing on Muslim radicalization in U.S. prisons, Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) said investigators needed to analyze