The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

[ENOCH2010]

I will quote Jesus one more time. HE is the one who told us the order of events regarding the tribulation in Matt 24 and Rev 6/7:

When it started:

Matt 24:Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What happens both after it AND immediately after it:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

and

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Who comes out of it and when:

Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

...

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What everyone is saying Jen,the fault isn't the written word it's your interpitation of the word that needs work.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I will quote Jesus one more time. HE is the one who told us the order of events regarding the tribulation in Matt 24 and Rev 6/7:

When it started:

Matt 24:Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What happens both after it AND immediately after it:

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

and

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Who comes out of it and when:

Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

...

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

I have no problem with any of the verses you have quoted above, but your interpretation of them makes no sense to me at all. You're not explaining yourself very well at all. Instead of asking a question and re-pasting the same scriptures over and over again, why don't you try to explain yourself, so we can see where you are coming from. The way you're doing it now is like reaching for straws and jumping from one conclusion to the next, and I can't make heads or tails out of it, because you keep dumping us off in left field somewhere, with no rhyme or reason as to how we got there.

Why don't you try posting the scripture, and then explain what you think it's saying. But don't explain it by asking a question.

If you post up a verse or two, and explain what it means to you...Then post a little more scripture and explain that..... Then maybe we'll be able to see where you're coming from or where you went wrong.

Now, tell us exactly what you see in the verses you quoted above and why. If you do this, it will be much easier to understand what you believe and why.

[rollinTHUNDER]

That's much better, Jen. I'll be back later to discuss this further.

[ENOCH2010]

How do I know the multitude is the bride (the church)?

#1. They are standing before the throne and the Lamb with the angels, etc.

#2. They are wearing white robes (given in the 5th seal) which are the "fine linen clean and bright" (rev 19) that is given to the Bride when she is ready. The white robes represent "righteousness" (rev 19) and symbolize our glorified body (clothes of immortality - 1 Cor 15).

The 5th seal, when the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, is when the white robes are given which is why the multitude (Bride - those who are ready) is standing before the throne in heaven having come out of great tribulation (which is over before the 6th seal) in Rev 7.

#3. They have washed in the blood of the Lamb. Again, this is the Bride/the church because we have been doing this for about 2000 years since the death/ascension of our Lord.

#4. The 6th seal (when the sun/moon darken/stars fall) says that's when wrath begins. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath.

#5. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath but receive salvation by our Lord Jesus which is why the multitude in Rev 7 is standing in heaven, wearing clothes of righteousness/immortality, having washed in the blood of the Lamb (for the last 2000 years) and is praising God for SALVATION.

#6. We know that at the moment of the "rapture", we are "changed" - "clothed with immortality" and caught up to Jesus who is calling us "in the air".

Therefore, the born again (ready) church does not endure wrath but has been in great tribulation for a very long time. We come out of great tribulation and are given our "robes of righteousness"/"clothes of immortality"/"white robes"/"fine linen clean and bright" in the 5th seal before wrath begins in the 6th seal. The antichrist arises after the trib is cut short, according to Jesus, proven in Revelation because he's wreaking havoc in the 7th seal.

God has told us everything. All we have to do is listen.

OK #6 I have a question. Where in scripture is it that describes this resurrection/rapture

[rollinTHUNDER]

OK, thanks for the input/tip.

I'll see if I can do what you have suggested:

Starting here:

Matt 24:Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Based on what Jesus said above, I see that the great tribulation began after the abomination of desolation.

(not to argue what exactly the abomination of desolation IS - YET- just noticing that the great tribulation began after the abomination of desolation)

Does anyone see that?

Okay, this is still not clear enough. The first question I have is not what, but when the abomination of desolation occurs? There are several of both, abominations and desolations. From the scriptures, we can tell the difference between the many, and the single one that Christ was talking about in Matt. 24. But we'll get to that later, after we find where we stand here.

Next, what tribulation are we focusing on here, the one that occurred in the 1st century when the Roman armies sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple, or the one that will come in the time of the end? Most scholars today teach about a seven year tribulation and divide it into two parts. The first part they call the tribulation, and the second part the great tribulation, with 3 1/2 years each. This is another assumption that has developed into a great misconception these days. Most scholars assume that the 7 yr. trib. is also Daniel's 70th week, which has only caused more confusion. And it starts getting kind of tricky for many, because of all of the false assumptions, misconceptions and myths that are being taught as truth today, but Christ warned us not to be deceived.

Paul warned us that this time would come in 2 Tim. 4:1-4, so we need to be very cautious when we are seeking the truth. As for me, I don't like to assume anything, and "antichrist" is one of those areas. Lots of hype, but nothing concrete, so why not just call him what Paul called him, the son of perdition and/or man of sin, not the antichrist & beast? I'm not saying the possibility doesn't exist, but if there is any doubt, I'm sticking with the facts that are known. But that's just me and the stand that I take personally, because I don't want to find out down the road that I've taken a wrong turn somewhere and have egg on my face.

Anyway, answer those things and then we'll see if we can continue on.

If so, then moving on to this:

[ENOCH2010]

How do I know the multitude is the bride (the church)?

#1. They are standing before the throne and the Lamb with the angels, etc.

#2. They are wearing white robes (given in the 5th seal) which are the "fine linen clean and bright" (rev 19) that is given to the Bride when she is ready. The white robes represent "righteousness" (rev 19) and symbolize our glorified body (clothes of immortality - 1 Cor 15).

The 5th seal, when the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, is when the white robes are given which is why the multitude (Bride - those who are ready) is standing before the throne in heaven having come out of great tribulation (which is over before the 6th seal) in Rev 7.

#3. They have washed in the blood of the Lamb. Again, this is the Bride/the church because we have been doing this for about 2000 years since the death/ascension of our Lord.

#4. The 6th seal (when the sun/moon darken/stars fall) says that's when wrath begins. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath.

#5. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath but receive salvation by our Lord Jesus which is why the multitude in Rev 7 is standing in heaven, wearing clothes of righteousness/immortality, having washed in the blood of the Lamb (for the last 2000 years) and is praising God for SALVATION.

#6. We know that at the moment of the "rapture", we are "changed" - "clothed with immortality" and caught up to Jesus who is calling us "in the air".

Therefore, the born again (ready) church does not endure wrath but has been in great tribulation for a very long time. We come out of great tribulation and are given our "robes of righteousness"/"clothes of immortality"/"white robes"/"fine linen clean and bright" in the 5th seal before wrath begins in the 6th seal. The antichrist arises after the trib is cut short, according to Jesus, proven in Revelation because he's wreaking havoc in the 7th seal.

God has told us everything. All we have to do is listen.

OK #6 I have a question. Where in scripture is it that describes this resurrection/rapture

In the 5th seal, the martyrs of Jesus (dead in Christ) are asking for justice - to be avenged.

We know that when the "rapture" occurs, the bodies of the dead in Christ come out of graves and we are all changed and caught up. We are waiting for what Paul described in 1 Cor 15 - to be clothed with immortality.

In the 5th seal, it says that white robes are given to them. Those white robes are the "clothes of immortality" that are given to the bride at the time of the "rapture".

The dead in Christ do not receive them without the living in Christ which is why the entire Bride, to that moment in time, is standing before the throne wearing white robes in Rev 7.

Side note: The martyrs who ask the question in the 5th seal are told MORE MARTYRS must occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal when the white robes are given, are those who are beheaded by the beast during the 7th seal and who are resurrected in the 1st resurrection of the millennium according to Rev 20.

I wonder why this resurrection you speak of isn't in the Bible

[goldust59]

How do I know the multitude is the bride (the church)?

#1. They are standing before the throne and the Lamb with the angels, etc.

#2. They are wearing white robes (given in the 5th seal) which are the "fine linen clean and bright" (rev 19) that is given to the Bride when she is ready. The white robes represent "righteousness" (rev 19) and symbolize our glorified body (clothes of immortality - 1 Cor 15).

The 5th seal, when the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, is when the white robes are given which is why the multitude (Bride - those who are ready) is standing before the throne in heaven having come out of great tribulation (which is over before the 6th seal) in Rev 7.

#3. They have washed in the blood of the Lamb. Again, this is the Bride/the church because we have been doing this for about 2000 years since the death/ascension of our Lord.

#4. The 6th seal (when the sun/moon darken/stars fall) says that's when wrath begins. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath.

#5. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath but receive salvation by our Lord Jesus which is why the multitude in Rev 7 is standing in heaven, wearing clothes of righteousness/immortality, having washed in the blood of the Lamb (for the last 2000 years) and is praising God for SALVATION.

#6. We know that at the moment of the "rapture", we are "changed" - "clothed with immortality" and caught up to Jesus who is calling us "in the air".

Therefore, the born again (ready) church does not endure wrath but has been in great tribulation for a very long time. We come out of great tribulation and are given our "robes of righteousness"/"clothes of immortality"/"white robes"/"fine linen clean and bright" in the 5th seal before wrath begins in the 6th seal. The antichrist arises after the trib is cut short, according to Jesus, proven in Revelation because he's wreaking havoc in the 7th seal.

God has told us everything. All we have to do is listen.

OK #6 I have a question. Where in scripture is it that describes this resurrection/rapture

In the 5th seal, the martyrs of Jesus (dead in Christ) are asking for justice - to be avenged.

We know that when the "rapture" occurs, the bodies of the dead in Christ come out of graves and we are all changed and caught up. We are waiting for what Paul described in 1 Cor 15 - to be clothed with immortality.

In the 5th seal, it says that white robes are given to them. Those white robes are the "clothes of immortality" that are given to the bride at the time of the "rapture".

The dead in Christ do not receive them without the living in Christ which is why the entire Bride, to that moment in time, is standing before the throne wearing white robes in Rev 7.

Side note: The martyrs who ask the question in the 5th seal are told MORE MARTYRS must occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal when the white robes are given, are those who are beheaded by the beast during the 7th seal and who are resurrected in the 1st resurrection of the millennium according to Rev 20.

Where did you get that the white robes were the "clothes of immortality"?

Been keeping up with the thread & I still don't see how you are coming up with what you been saying. I do not believe God separates the believers by a rapture.

Since you think there is a resurrection at the time of a rapture, are those raptured the ones that rule & reign with Christ? I don't think so because that is what is said about those that are in the first resurrection of Rev 20. So, which is it?

[ENOCH2010]

How do I know the multitude is the bride (the church)?

#1. They are standing before the throne and the Lamb with the angels, etc.

#2. They are wearing white robes (given in the 5th seal) which are the "fine linen clean and bright" (rev 19) that is given to the Bride when she is ready. The white robes represent "righteousness" (rev 19) and symbolize our glorified body (clothes of immortality - 1 Cor 15).

The 5th seal, when the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect, is when the white robes are given which is why the multitude (Bride - those who are ready) is standing before the throne in heaven having come out of great tribulation (which is over before the 6th seal) in Rev 7.

#3. They have washed in the blood of the Lamb. Again, this is the Bride/the church because we have been doing this for about 2000 years since the death/ascension of our Lord.

#4. The 6th seal (when the sun/moon darken/stars fall) says that's when wrath begins. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath.

#5. The church is not appointed to suffer wrath but receive salvation by our Lord Jesus which is why the multitude in Rev 7 is standing in heaven, wearing clothes of righteousness/immortality, having washed in the blood of the Lamb (for the last 2000 years) and is praising God for SALVATION.

#6. We know that at the moment of the "rapture", we are "changed" - "clothed with immortality" and caught up to Jesus who is calling us "in the air".

Therefore, the born again (ready) church does not endure wrath but has been in great tribulation for a very long time. We come out of great tribulation and are given our "robes of righteousness"/"clothes of immortality"/"white robes"/"fine linen clean and bright" in the 5th seal before wrath begins in the 6th seal. The antichrist arises after the trib is cut short, according to Jesus, proven in Revelation because he's wreaking havoc in the 7th seal.

God has told us everything. All we have to do is listen.

OK #6 I have a question. Where in scripture is it that describes this resurrection/rapture

In the 5th seal, the martyrs of Jesus (dead in Christ) are asking for justice - to be avenged.

We know that when the "rapture" occurs, the bodies of the dead in Christ come out of graves and we are all changed and caught up. We are waiting for what Paul described in 1 Cor 15 - to be clothed with immortality.

In the 5th seal, it says that white robes are given to them. Those white robes are the "clothes of immortality" that are given to the bride at the time of the "rapture".

The dead in Christ do not receive them without the living in Christ which is why the entire Bride, to that moment in time, is standing before the throne wearing white robes in Rev 7.

Side note: The martyrs who ask the question in the 5th seal are told MORE MARTYRS must occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal when the white robes are given, are those who are beheaded by the beast during the 7th seal and who are resurrected in the 1st resurrection of the millennium according to Rev 20.

Where did you get that the white robes were the "clothes of immortality"?

Been keeping up with the thread & I still don't see how you are coming up with what you been saying. I do not believe God separates the believers by a rapture.

Since you think there is a resurrection at the time of a rapture, are those raptured the ones that rule & reign with Christ? I don't think so because that is what is said about those that are in the first resurrection of Rev 20. So, which is it?

That's the trouble with all the rapture theories,the only possible rapture I can find in the Bible is called the second coming .It has a resurrection described in the Bible as the first resurrection,which sounds alot like the meeting in the air spoken about in Thes.

[OneLight]

If you read past Revelation 6, and the Sixth Seal, you will find who they are in Revelation 7. They are those who came out of the Great Tribulation, not the body of Christ that "was" caught up to be with Christ. If Christ had already called His Body home, why would He say after the Sixth Bowl, in Revelation 16:15, that He will come as a thief, which is also spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:4? When we are caught up to be with the Lord in the clouds, it will only happen one time. This is not a repetitive event.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[goldust59]

Where did you get that the white robes were the "clothes of immortality"?

Ok, in Rev 6, the 5th seal, white robes are given to the martyrs of Jesus up to that moment in time, right? They are told more martyrs must occur before final judgment of the earth.

In Rev 7, there's a multitude clothed in white robes who have come out of great tribulation and washed in the blood of the Lamb.

In Rev 19, a multitude is praising God, rejoicing and saying,

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Based on those facts, we know that the white robes (fine linen, clean and white) is given to the Bride, the believers in Christ, those who have washed in the blood of the Lamb.

We also know that it represents "righteousness" (rev 19) - we are righteous by Christ.

Now, why/how are we righteous in heaven? How is it that we can stand before God?

When the "rapture" occurs, we are given glorified bodies - our bodies are changed. Paul described it like this:

KJV:

1 Cor 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We are given glorified bodies, which are our "robes of righteousness", our "garments of salvation":

Isa 61:10 ¶ I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.

That's what the white robes symbolize - "clothing" given to the Bride at the time of her marriage to Christ - our glorified bodies.

Been keeping up with the thread & I still don't see how you are coming up with what you been saying. I do not believe God separates the believers by a rapture.

Technically, when the "rapture" occurs, that is the entire body of Christ to that moment in time. After it occurs, there will be people (described as the "rest of the woman's offspring" in Rev 12) who are considered "saints" (because God knows everything in advance) who then choose to believe and DIE as martyrs for Jesus at the hands of the beast during the time of wrath. God honors those who choose to die in belief and resurrects them, allows the church to judge them, at the first resurrection of the millennium, rewarding them with the same reward as the church. They are judged by their works (Rev 14/Rev 20) and found worthy because they die for Christ while under wrath.

Since you think there is a resurrection at the time of a rapture, are those raptured the ones that rule & reign with Christ? I don't think so because that is what is said about those that are in the first resurrection of Rev 20. So, which is it?

Jesus said in Rev 2 and 3 that it is those who overcome who He grants to rule and reign with Him. The church (dead and living in Christ up until He appears prior to wrath who overcame by the blood of the Lamb) and those who overcome not by the blood of the Lamb but by works dying as martyrs during wrath will rule and reign with Him.

Rev 2: 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Remember, scripture says that judgment begins with the people of God. There's the church/body of Christ first, then those faithful during the time of wrath who are beheaded for choosing Jesus, then at the end of the millennium there's everyone else.

The 2nd death which happens after the millennium at the GWT judgment is what the dead who are not dead in Christ fear. The 2nd death has no power over the church or those who are resurrected, judged by the church and receive the same reward along with the church - as part of the church. We are judged first.

I know what the robes stand for & they are not "clothes of immortality".

We are to overcome til the end, so what do you see as 'the end'? What do you see the overcomers having to overcome?

I disagree that the last martyrs are those that choose to believe after a rapture has taken place. And I don't recall part of the 'church' having to judge another part of the 'church' either. Is that what you mean when you say judgement begins with the people of God? Peter was talking about being partakers of Christ's sufferings on earth in the passage about judgement beginning at house of God. (1 Peter 4:12-20)