Ro 11:20-21

[Botz]

Yesssss Botz I would agree that this breaking off is already occurring. However I go one step further and suggest that those broken off, do not have the spirit, and are thus not saved. IMHO.

I have no argument with that...when lets say, Wesley started the movement of 'Methodism'...those that attached themselves to his leadership, were bone fide born again Believers....he would suffer no pretense or compromise....but eventually the dust has settled, and now among their ranks after several hundred years there is a mixture, sheep and goats, and again the Scripture applies that not everyone who says L-rd. L-RD etc is of the L-rd....many have been broken off, and they go through the motions, but have never known the Father.

[Isaiah 6:8]

How can you hold on to something if you have nothing to do with attaining or maintaining it?

I think this is the hurdle that you run in to if you hold a salvation by faith alone view.

What do you think?

I know you were not asking me, but if you don't mind I have an answer from scripture. I'll sum it up first. We are saved by grace alone, no good works will do it. However, we show our faith by our works. But our works do not save us.

The scripture backing up by grace alone

Ephesians 2

New King James Version (NKJV)

By Grace Through Faith

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

New King James Version (NKJV)

Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,

And whose sins are covered;

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

But how do we show that we have accepted the grace by faith? By our works, we show it.

James 2:14-26

New King James Version (NKJV)

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

New King James Version (NKJV)

Hebrews 11

By Faith We Understand

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Faith at the Dawn of History

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”;[a] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Faithful Abraham

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

Its interesting as in Hebrews 11 shows, they had faith, and they showed it through there works.

This story shows the point very clearly.

Over 100 years ago, a French tightrope walker named Blondin walked across Niagara Falls in front of a crowd of 100,000 people. He then asked the crowd this question, "Do you believe I can walk across these falls with a man on my back?" The whole crowd cheered, "Yes, we believe!" He then retorted, "Then who wants to get on my back?" Needless to say, no one raised his hand. Blondin's manager then climbed aboard his back and made the harrowing journey across the Falls.

Man people believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins, but are unwilling to completely trust Him with their lives. Faith means we completely trust.

http://are-you-going.com/page-17b.html

You see simple belief is one thing, but true faith, is stepping out, and trusting God to carry you across. The works is getting up on the shoulders proving that you trust him.

You are right, simple belief does not save you, but having faith enough to get on Gods shoulders and letting him carry you does.

Since simple belief does not save us, as you say, then it must be belief plus something else, right?

I believe that we must repond by our thoughts, words, and deeds to the free gift of God's grace. Our refusal to follow God's will is an act of our own free will.

Grace enables us to act in accordance to God's will, and we will be judged for our actions:

Romans 2

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Gal 6

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

2 Cor 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Rev 20:12

12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books

John 15

9“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Like I said, stepping up on the Shoulders, is the work. Not jumping off mid stream is a good Idea! LOL. We do need to stay balanced in our faith, and not turn to sin, (Romans the whole book deals with this in detail)

I think the over all thing is this, yes we need to do good works, God has even set up good works for us to walk in. However doing such works is not what saves us. Grace alone saves, but we must prove that its not just belief, as James says, but we must show, that we do, step up on the shoulders of God. Do the good works that show our beliefs. Like Hebrews talks about, they were justified by Faith, but they showed their faith by there works.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Also as this pertains

Galatians 3 NKJV

Justification by Faith

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Changeless Promise

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[Guest shiloh357]

It never ceases to amaze me how people make such a straightforward appeal by Paul into a such a difficult and confusing topic. This is so simple, people have needed help to misunderstand it.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 comprise an appeal by Paul to the Gentiles to be a blessing to Israel. Namely, Paul's appeal was for the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people because the salvation and the blessings and favor the Gentiles are now enjoying came at a great price on Israel's part. In chapter 11, Paul's point is that instead of becoming arrogant and assuming that the Jews had been cast off in deference to the Gentiles, they were to, in humility, be a light and blessing to Israel. The Gentiles were enjoying the blessings and benefits of the covenants given to Israel and this was meant to make the Jewish people jealous and desirous of those same blessings.

People come to this chapter not reading the contexst, not letting Paul speak for himself and trying read all kinds of things into the passage that have absolutely nothing to do with the context. This is not about losing salvation or anything like that. It is about being a blessing to Israel. Romans 9,10 and 11 are the main focal point of the book.

[other one]

It never ceases to amaze me how people make such a straightforward appeal by Paul into a such a difficult and confusing topic. This is so simple, people have needed help to misunderstand it.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 comprise an appeal by Paul to the Gentiles to be a blessing to Israel. Namely, Paul's appeal was for the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people because the salvation and the blessings and favor the Gentiles are now enjoying came at a great price on Israel's part. In chapter 11, Paul's point is that instead of becoming arrogant and assuming that the Jews had been cast off in deference to the Gentiles, they were to, in humility, be a light and blessing to Israel. The Gentiles were enjoying the blessings and benefits of the covenants given to Israel and this was meant to make the Jewish people jealous and desirous of those same blessings.

People come to this chapter not reading the contexst, not letting Paul speak for himself and trying read all kinds of things into the passage that have absolutely nothing to do with the context. This is not about losing salvation or anything like that. It is about being a blessing to Israel. Romans 9,10 and 11 are the main focal point of the book.

:thumbsup:

[mizzdy]

Gentile believers are not Israelites. They are the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith. They are permitted to participate in the blessings and benefits and blessings of the covenants of Israel. Those blessings are conditional, however. When Israel was disobedient, they were not allowed to participate in the blessings of their covenants either. They were taken into exile because of disobedience. They still retained ownership of the Land, and were still His people, but were cut off from possessing and enjoying the blessings the Land had to offer.

If gentiles are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel what does that make them? gentile Israel? I don't believe there is such a term. Those people that God pulled out of Egypt were Abrahams seed weren't they? Where is the covenant with the gentiles? if gentiles are permitted to benefit from the blessings of the covenant made specfically to Israel but are not Israel where in scriptre do we read of where this is going to happen and how they are to remain a separate people who enjoy the blessings of Israel? When Peter writes his letters is he calling genitles, Jews or those in disporia which is considered the northern tribe? I know you read and speak Hebrew, but when I ask the rabbis who they think Peter and the rest are speaking to they all tell me it is the northern kingdom of Israel. I know more than a few Messianic rabbis who all agree that Israel, the northern kingdom, is scattered in unbelief, all go back to Hosea and how God is calling them back and as He is doing that He is calling all gentiles to join with them. When any person comes to faith in Yeshua as the Messiah they are grafted into Israel and they are called Israel. I cannot find a separate called out body that is given a covenant that included eternal life apart from the one given to Israel. So how does the gentiles get all these blessings without being a part of the covenant? When I read about the 'new' covenant I see its made with Israel, Judah and all their companions and it is not completely fulfilled until He returns again, thats evident in the writings in Jer. and Eze. By the way I do not see Israel, Judah or anyone else that is given that covenant as any kind of genetic anything anymore but all who call upon and confess the name of Yeshua and know there is only one true God who sent Him.

shalom,

Mizz

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Chesterton,

We can do nothing to save ourselves we do however have the ability to walk away from Christ to walk away from faith and this gift that we are freely given. We are called to live in this faith that is supplied to us, but notice in this passage; the Jews did not have faith and they were indeed cut off, how much more we who have been freely given faith must not boast as if we are better than the Jews just because we have accepted a free gift we have nothing that has not been given to us our only response is gratitude. Gratitude means living for Christ following Him. What we do is surrender we cannot take any credit; it is not about us.

I agree with this for the most part.

However, I think that the way we could walk away from Christ is disobedience and a lack of repentance.

In other words, our works do impact our salvation if we refuse to obey.

Grace is a gift, but salvation comes to those who cooperate with God's free gift of grace.

No, the gift is salvation, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

The gift is not grace, as you assert, but the gift is eternal life by grace, "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Romans 5:15).

And this freely given gift of salvation is by grace, through faith, not by works, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

It must be by grace, not by works, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:5-6).

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5).

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

It never ceases to amaze me how people make such a straightforward appeal by Paul into a such a difficult and confusing topic. This is so simple, people have needed help to misunderstand it.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 comprise an appeal by Paul to the Gentiles to be a blessing to Israel. Namely, Paul's appeal was for the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people because the salvation and the blessings and favor the Gentiles are now enjoying came at a great price on Israel's part. In chapter 11, Paul's point is that instead of becoming arrogant and assuming that the Jews had been cast off in deference to the Gentiles, they were to, in humility, be a light and blessing to Israel. The Gentiles were enjoying the blessings and benefits of the covenants given to Israel and this was meant to make the Jewish people jealous and desirous of those same blessings.

People come to this chapter not reading the contexst, not letting Paul speak for himself and trying read all kinds of things into the passage that have absolutely nothing to do with the context. This is not about losing salvation or anything like that. It is about being a blessing to Israel. Romans 9,10 and 11 are the main focal point of the book.

I think some try to separate chapters 8,9 from the rest of Romans in their defense of Calvinism, and I believe that your point exposes the error in this method.

You're clearly entirely ignorant of the Calvinistic interpretation of this passage. Calvinists might consider the above interpretation Molinistic, and therefore overtly Catholic.

Actually, I actively oppose Calvinism, but I agree entirely with Shiloh's interpretation, which by no means is abandoning the focus of chapters 9 onward. Quite the contrary, since Romans 9 starts with: "I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen" (Romans 9:1-5).

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Gentile believers are not Israelites. They are the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith. They are permitted to participate in the blessings and benefits and blessings of the covenants of Israel. Those blessings are conditional, however. When Israel was disobedient, they were not allowed to participate in the blessings of their covenants either. They were taken into exile because of disobedience. They still retained ownership of the Land, and were still His people, but were cut off from possessing and enjoying the blessings the Land had to offer.

If gentiles are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel what does that make them? gentile Israel? I don't believe there is such a term.

Hi Mizz,

No it doesn't make us gentile Israel. It means that the prophesied time of the Gentiles wherein the nations will put their trust in God has come.

Those people that God pulled out of Egypt were Abrahams seed weren't they?

Yes and that was for that covenant, which Jesus fulfilled were the Law of Moses could not, "When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son” (Matt 2:13-15).

Where is the covenant with the gentiles? if gentiles are permitted to benefit from the blessings of the covenant made specfically to Israel but are not Israel where in scriptre do we read of where this is going to happen and how they are to remain a separate people who enjoy the blessings of Israel?

We do have to bear in mind that God made promises to the physical descendants of Abraham, and He is and always will be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and will come back to save all of Israel according to Romans 11, but we do read that the "promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).

We don't supersede the covenant of Abraham, but we are included in its spiritual fulfillment, "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all" (Romans 4:16), "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

That good news is heavily focused on in Ephesians 2:

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit" Ephesians 2: 11-22).

"So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker" (Romans 2: 26-27).

"In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son" (Romans 9:8-9).

The passage in Romans 11 does not say we will be a separate people - in fact just the opposite, as we're grafted in, but it is the faithful of the Gentiles being grafted unnaturally into the root among the faithful of Israel, representing the covenants spoken of in the above passages.

God has never saved the unfaithful, either in the Nation of Israel or in the elect Gentiles according to faith, "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you" (Matt 7:21-23). Notice it doesn't say, 'I no longer know you', or 'I knew you once but not now', but "I never knew you".

We see in Hebrews it was always and only the faithful who were truely God's people. The unfaithful would never have been branches if the topic were salvation, but being cut off and grafted in is not a reference to individual salvation but of the covenants of Abraham verses the New Covenant of Christ during the prophesied time when the nations would put their trust in the Messiah until the fulness of the Gentiles be complete, and then all of Israel will turn back to God, according to Romans 11.

As Shiloh pointed out, being a grafted branch has to do with purpose and action, not salvation: ""I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). Is it true that the unsaved can literally do nothing? No, but they can do no fruitful work for God for all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Thus, it is not a salvation determinism when we see that Jesus said, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last" (John 15:16). We're talking appointment for works, not salvation which is the gift, by grace through faith, not by works.

When Peter writes his letters is he calling genitles, Jews or those in disporia which is considered the northern tribe? I know you read and speak Hebrew, but when I ask the rabbis who they think Peter and the rest are speaking to they all tell me it is the northern kingdom of Israel. I know more than a few Messianic rabbis who all agree that Israel, the northern kingdom, is scattered in unbelief, all go back to Hosea and how God is calling them back

Sorry to cut you off, but please bear in mind that Jesus fulfilled prophesies in Hosea. He was the Son whom God called out of Egypt who succeeded where the Law needed fulfillment.

and as He is doing that He is calling all gentiles to join with them.

Right. That is the branches that are being grafted in, while the fruitless are cast aside.

When any person comes to faith in Yeshua as the Messiah they are grafted into Israel and they are called Israel.

Notice all throughout Romans 9-11, whenever Israel is mentioned it refers specifically to the Nation corporately, or rather "the children by physical descent" of Abraham. Notice specifically in Romans 11 it says "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious" (Romans 11:11). Who here is Israel? It must be the Nation corporately, since it's in reference to stumbling, and is contrasted by the salvation offered the Gentiles.

All throughout Chapter 11 we see the Nation of Israel (defined but simply called Israel) clearly differentiated from the elect by grace (all believers, Jew and Gentile alike), so as I'm sure you're careful not to do, we have to be careful not to spiritualize all reference to Israel made in the NT.

I cannot find a separate called out body that is given a covenant that included eternal life apart from the one given to Israel.

That's the point, we're not separate - we're grafted in, but apparently with still recognizable to God as unnatural branches on some level "for God is able to graft them [the Nation of Israel] in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!" (Romans 11: 23-24).

So how does the gentiles get all these blessings without being a part of the covenant? When I read about the 'new' covenant I see its made with Israel, Judah and all their companions and it is not completely fulfilled until He returns again, thats evident in the writings in Jer. and Eze. By the way I do not see Israel, Judah or anyone else that is given that covenant as any kind of genetic anything anymore but all who call upon and confess the name of Yeshua and know there is only one true God who sent Him.

shalom,

Mizz

God is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. He only identifies Himself as aligned with one nation, and does so frequently, and that nation is Israel, with whom He has an everlasting covenant. He prophesied that there would be a time of the Gentiles in which Israel would remain in a state of unbelief, until that time be complete and then all Israel will be turn to God:

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

And this is my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all" (Romans 11:25-32).

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

It never ceases to amaze me how people make such a straightforward appeal by Paul into a such a difficult and confusing topic. This is so simple, people have needed help to misunderstand it.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 comprise an appeal by Paul to the Gentiles to be a blessing to Israel. Namely, Paul's appeal was for the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people because the salvation and the blessings and favor the Gentiles are now enjoying came at a great price on Israel's part. In chapter 11, Paul's point is that instead of becoming arrogant and assuming that the Jews had been cast off in deference to the Gentiles, they were to, in humility, be a light and blessing to Israel. The Gentiles were enjoying the blessings and benefits of the covenants given to Israel and this was meant to make the Jewish people jealous and desirous of those same blessings.

People come to this chapter not reading the contexst, not letting Paul speak for himself and trying read all kinds of things into the passage that have absolutely nothing to do with the context. This is not about losing salvation or anything like that. It is about being a blessing to Israel. Romans 9,10 and 11 are the main focal point of the book.

I think some try to separate chapters 8,9 from the rest of Romans in their defense of Calvinism, and I believe that your point exposes the error in this method.

You're clearly entirely ignorant of the Calvinistic interpretation of this passage. Calvinists might consider the above interpretation Molinistic, and therefore overtly Catholic.

Actually, I actively oppose Calvinism, but I agree entirely with Shiloh's interpretation.

I also agree with Shiloh's interpretation and oppose Calvinism.

Not sure if you read my post correctly.

Oops, I guess I didn't.

My apologies chestertonrules! I mistook your meaning.

Sorry about that!