Omniscience

[godrulz]

God is responsive by His intelligence and ability. Since exhaustive foreknowledge would fix the future, it offers no providential advantage because God could not change it even if He wanted to (would make His FK wrong).

You still have not demonstrated from Scripture that God changes the future or simply responds to events as they occur. You have not demonstrated Scripturally that God does not know our future decisions and choices. You are relying more on philosophy and philosophical assumptions than you are on Scripture.

That would explain you cannot employ God's self-disclosure to support your view. God does not reveal Himself according to your limited and unbiblical view of Him.

Books are written on this. I gave you links with many Scriptural comments. Some of these issues involve paradigms, principles, and philosophy since Scripture does not explicitly resolve or deal with them. We do not use the Bible to prove mathematical formulas. You are unfamiliar with the biblical evidence for Open Theism, so you wrongly assume it does not exist. I have looked at the many verses that support it and the lame counter-arguments (that impose a Calvinistic, deterministic view on them) and have made an informed decision. The exact nature of the kenosis, free will, sovereignty, etc. is not spelled out like a systematic theology text in Scripture (which is more historical narrative, biblical theology vs systematic, etc.), so we must bring to bear other disciplines in addition to proof texts. Scripture is the final authority, but it simply does not cover every area of relevant knowledge in detail. We agree that God is sovereign, omniscient, immutable, etc., but these things must be defined, qualified, tested, not just assumed (much tradition is not truth).

[jmwhalen]

God is responsive by His intelligence and ability. Since exhaustive foreknowledge would fix the future, it offers no providential advantage because God could not change it even if He wanted to (would make His FK wrong).

You still have not demonstrated from Scripture that God changes the future or simply responds to events as they occur. You have not demonstrated Scripturally that God does not know our future decisions and choices. You are relying more on philosophy and philosophical assumptions than you are on Scripture.

That would explain you cannot employ God's self-disclosure to support your view. God does not reveal Himself according to your limited and unbiblical view of Him.

Books are written on this. I gave you links with many Scriptural comments. Some of these issues involve paradigms, principles, and philosophy since Scripture does not explicitly resolve or deal with them. We do not use the Bible to prove mathematical formulas. You are unfamiliar with the biblical evidence for Open Theism, so you wrongly assume it does not exist. I have looked at the many verses that support it and the lame counter-arguments (that impose a Calvinistic, deterministic view on them) and have made an informed decision. The exact nature of the kenosis, free will, sovereignty, etc. is not spelled out like a systematic theology text in Scripture (which is more historical narrative, biblical theology vs systematic, etc.), so we must bring to bear other disciplines in addition to proof texts. Scripture is the final authority, but it simply does not cover every area of relevant knowledge in detail. We agree that God is sovereign, omniscient, immutable, etc., but these things must be defined, qualified, tested, not just assumed (much tradition is not truth).

Cliche spam.

Look at all relevant verses without a wrong paradigm.Try a good commentary that will interpret these verses consistent with all relevant verses vs twisting out of context with a poor interpretation.The problem is your negative proof texting void of exegesis in contextTry a good commentary that will interpret these verses consistent with all relevant verses vs twisting out of context with a poor interpretation."

Understand that this "god"rulz is a charlatan, a con artist, posing as a member of the boc.

[Guest shiloh357]

Books are written on this. I gave you links with many Scriptural comments. Some of these issues involve paradigms, principles, and philosophy since Scripture does not explicitly resolve or deal with them. We do not use the Bible to prove mathematical formulas.

But we are not talking about mathematical formulas or some extrabiblical concept. We are talking about God. God's own self-disclosure of Himself is found in the Bible. So your argument should be able to be made solely from Scripture, and you should be able to demonstrate it objectively. What you are doing amounts to reading a philosophical position into the Scripture. You penciling

You are unfamiliar with the biblical evidence for Open Theism, so you wrongly assume it does not exist.

I have asked you to post the Scriptures you feel support your position so they can be reviewed and you have not done so. I have asked you to make a scriptural argument and you have failed to do so.

I have looked at the many verses that support it and the lame counter-arguments (that impose a Calvinistic, deterministic view on them) and have made an informed decision.

but not all of us are Calvinsits. I'm not. You seem to think that one is either an open theist or a Calvinist.

The exact nature of the kenosis, free will, sovereignty, etc. is not spelled out like a systematic theology text in Scripture (which is more historical narrative, biblical theology vs systematic, etc.), so we must bring to bear other disciplines in addition to proof texts.

You can't make a truly Scriputural defense so you bring outside philosophical concepts through which to interpret selective texts in order to make the appear to say what you are saying. Very sloppy hermeneutics. You have to impose something on the text. That is not exegesis.

[enoob57]

For me you are asking the exhaustive parameters of God in Knowledge... as to all aspects of God they are unbound by parameter they are in fact without end... having what we have of Him now through Spirit, knowing more to be gained, and taking it into our beings is eternal life IN HIM... IMHO! Love Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

God created everything, including "experience."

You can't create what you don't know perfectly and completely.

The Supreme Spirit created matter, which He is not.

God doesn't have to "be" it to know it, and to know it more thoroughly, truly and completely that those who "are" it.

Experience is not created. Experience is experienced. This is not about what God is or isn't. The question I asked pertains to the extent of omnscience, not whether or not God is omniscient.

[godrulz]

God is responsive by His intelligence and ability. Since exhaustive foreknowledge would fix the future, it offers no providential advantage because God could not change it even if He wanted to (would make His FK wrong).

You still have not demonstrated from Scripture that God changes the future or simply responds to events as they occur. You have not demonstrated Scripturally that God does not know our future decisions and choices. You are relying more on philosophy and philosophical assumptions than you are on Scripture.

That would explain you cannot employ God's self-disclosure to support your view. God does not reveal Himself according to your limited and unbiblical view of Him.

Books are written on this. I gave you links with many Scriptural comments. Some of these issues involve paradigms, principles, and philosophy since Scripture does not explicitly resolve or deal with them. We do not use the Bible to prove mathematical formulas. You are unfamiliar with the biblical evidence for Open Theism, so you wrongly assume it does not exist. I have looked at the many verses that support it and the lame counter-arguments (that impose a Calvinistic, deterministic view on them) and have made an informed decision. The exact nature of the kenosis, free will, sovereignty, etc. is not spelled out like a systematic theology text in Scripture (which is more historical narrative, biblical theology vs systematic, etc.), so we must bring to bear other disciplines in addition to proof texts. Scripture is the final authority, but it simply does not cover every area of relevant knowledge in detail. We agree that God is sovereign, omniscient, immutable, etc., but these things must be defined, qualified, tested, not just assumed (much tradition is not truth).

Cliche spam.

Look at all relevant verses without a wrong paradigm.Try a good commentary that will interpret these verses consistent with all relevant verses vs twisting out of context with a poor interpretation.The problem is your negative proof texting void of exegesis in contextTry a good commentary that will interpret these verses consistent with all relevant verses vs twisting out of context with a poor interpretation."

Understand that this "god"rulz is a charlatan, a con artist, posing as a member of the boc.

johnw? Unbelievable. I am being haunted. You are Open Theist on TOL, so what are you talking about? Have they lifted your ban yet for rude behaviour and spamming the rest of us?

[godrulz]

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

God created everything, including "experience."

You can't create what you don't know perfectly and completely.

The Supreme Spirit created matter, which He is not.

God doesn't have to "be" it to know it, and to know it more thoroughly, truly and completely that those who "are" it.

Experience is not created. Experience is experienced. This is not about what God is or isn't. The question I asked pertains to the extent of omnscience, not whether or not God is omniscient.

God's knowledge depends on nothing outside Himself.

Experience is based in physiology.

God created physiology.

The outcome of His creation is not accidental nor incidental to Him, it is determined by Him.

Creation is outside of God. Knowledge of creation is outside of God. I see my computer. The computer is not internal to me. God does not experience things with 5 senses like we do, but His knowledge of Himself is not identical to His knowledge of creation. He knows reality as it is. God experienced fellowship, love, communication, etc. before creation/physiology (relates to matter) in His spirit triune relations. After creation, He experiences new reality outside of Himself. God is not pancausal or this would make Him responsible for heinous evil. He can and does intervene in creation (transcendent and immanent), but He does not exhaustively micromanage it (if He did, things would not be such a mess down here; warfare vs blueprint model of providence). God determines ultimate outcomes, but not every choice by significant-other creatures. There is no theodicy apart from a free will defense.

[godrulz]

Calvinists error to think that sovereignty must be exhaustive, meticulous, micromanaging instead of responsive, providential, and within the context of God-given creaturely freedom. God is still sovereign, but not in the Calvinistic sense, if He lets us name the animals (Adam). Sovereign does not mean all-controlling, but in control despite significant others having a say so, even contrary to God at times (what kind of parent would control a kid like a car or pet?).

[Fez]

Calvinists error to think that sovereignty must be exhaustive, meticulous, micromanaging instead of responsive, providential, and within the context of God-given creaturely freedom. God is still sovereign, but not in the Calvinistic sense, if He lets us name the animals (Adam). Sovereign does not mean all-controlling, but in control despite significant others having a say so, even contrary to God at times (what kind of parent would control a kid like a car or pet?).

but in control despite significant others having a say so, even contrary to God at times

Can you explain? With scripture?

[Guest shiloh357]

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

God created everything, including "experience."

You can't create what you don't know perfectly and completely.

The Supreme Spirit created matter, which He is not.

God doesn't have to "be" it to know it, and to know it more thoroughly, truly and completely that those who "are" it.

Experience is not created. Experience is experienced. This is not about what God is or isn't. The question I asked pertains to the extent of omnscience, not whether or not God is omniscient.

God's knowledge depends on nothing outside Himself.

Experience is based in physiology.

God created physiology.

The outcome of His creation is not accidental nor incidental to Him, it is determined by Him.

Experience is not necessarily "based" on physiology. For exampe: Has God ever experienced personal sinfulness? Has He ever experienced comitting a sin? Has God ever personally known through experience what it is like to not be God? Has God ever experienced a need that He needed someone higher than Him to meet?