Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Dave123]

I am sorry brother. I missed that post. I will be coming back later tonight to answer you. Honestly, I missed that post. There are so many I am trying to answer all over the board. Not avoiding you at all.

LOL, I can relate to that.

[other one]

Boy can we all relate to that.

I might add that I really hope you all don't decide all the guifts are not for real, I'd hate to get to heaven and have God ask me what all the babble was about when you were supposed to be praying for all these people on Worthy Boards.

:prayer :dove :prayer for me....

[Nebuchadnezza10]

You hear of demoniacs being set free (This is toward Neb, since most Cessationist actually believe in Demonic possession.) and you figure they are putting on a show or are just mentally ill.

Someone claims on a faith healers program that they can walk suddenly, and your mind goes to the movie "Elmer Gantry" (A fictional book inspired it) and you already know that the sick person is a plant.

This is what your logic and reason has done to you. It has not made you a people of faith but a people of doubt. It has made you Cynical Pessimist, not Believing Optimist.

Hey Scudbuddy,

What you are expecting me to do is have a blind faith. That is something that the bible condemns. We are supposed to test everything. I am not going to believe in anyone

Edited October 5, 2004 by Nebuchadnezza10

[Scudbuddy]

Hi Scud

I won't go over all that stuff again. I refuse to play the straw man game any longer. You have avoided all my questions, so i'll make it easier.

Can you put it writing, plainly, the purpose for the gifts of healing, miracles, tongues and prophecy, and how do you tell the difference between the true and the false?

In Christ

Dave

Is this so hard, or do you have something to hide, Scud?

Your faith and hope revolve around these things, yet you don't know what they are?

Please take the time to be plain and clear with these simple truths. Tell what they were and what they were for, that should not be all that difficult.

P.S. Have you thrown your Bible away yet?

I am sorry brother. I missed that post. I will be coming back later tonight to answer you. Honestly, I missed that post. There are so many I am trying to answer all over the board. Not avoiding you at all.

Sorry, brother. I have had a long day. I had a flat tire in the middle of nowhere. The tires nubs were on so tight, couldn't get them off to save my life. So I prayed for a miracle, and some guy who is not so stupid with the mechanical things of life stopped and applied force that I knew not how to apply. I wasn't flagging anyone down either. (He stood on doo-hickey till nubs came loose.) Now you know why I believe in miracles. I would be completely lost without them. God has to send angels and healings just to cover my sorry bee-hind. I would have died at the age of conception without them.

But seriously, why do I believe in miracles as being valid for today?

Healing:In plain writing, I will ask why would you not want the gift of healing? When you are sick, and the doctor tells you you have a month to live, it is kind of nice to start off the prayer from genuine faith that God still heals the sick, instead of having to wrestle with "Why did I give Scudbuddy such a hard time about healing? He could be right over to pray for me, and if he is telling the truth, I might even get healed. And if he is lying, he will look so stupid, and I will have the last laugh. But noooooooooo, I had to be stubborn, and now look at me. I am going to have to humble myself and repent, and hope he's not mad at me, and that God isn't teed off either. I just should've believed."

And then you call me, humble yourself and repent for anti-healing ideas when you really need healing. I come over, you get healed after we agree in Jesus name and fast and pray and really knock on Gods door. He gets tired of the knocks, and ouila, you are suddenly healed. Doctors amazed, your church is amazed, you are amazed, even your parrot is amazed. He flys off squawking "God is alive, God is alive. Dave is surprised, and I need a cracker!"

Of course then you write to Neb, and tell him of your experience, and he tells you it doesn't matter. Just the word. He returns your parrot who flew off to him so he could be around somebody more reasonable. But what did you expect from a parrot named Hume?

Two months later, Neb comes down with something serious and .............

Point being. It is so much funner believeing in something that just might come in handy one day. And though I was having some fun with you, the truth of the matter is that I am actually quoting from personal knowledge. I know of Cessationist who strongly held to "no gifts" right up till their wife was dying of cancer. Suddenly their friendly adversarial pentecostal pastor wasn't all that wrong after all. And guess what. Their wife was healed. (After he called that pastor friend of his.)

Is that plain enough.

Miracles:Broken down in the middle of nowhere. Need a miracle. It is so much nicer than not believing in one. (I have so many more much more major miracles that have happened. But todays' miracle was enough for me.)

Tongues: I have found that just like the word says, it builds up my spirit. It is also used to pray when you do not know how to pray for a certain situation. God intercedes for us according to Romans 8.

Here is a story that I love. A fellow missionary friend of mine was in Argentina in the mid-90's and while driving a very remote road the Lord spoke to him to pray in the spirit, and not to stop praying until He released him. So he began to pray in tongues, and a little while later a couple of cars forced him off the road. While in the spirit, the Lord told him to look down, and to not look at their faces. Several men surrounded him, robbed him and beat him. The whole time he looked down, and prayed in the Spirit. They beat him till he passed out. They thought they had killed him. Several tourist along this highway had been murdered the same way.

Later on he woke up, and again began to pray in the spirit. He found his car still there, and when he could fully function, he drove to the nearest police station. The whole time he prayed in the spirit. When he came to the station, he told the police his story, and how the Lord had warned him not to look at the faces of the criminals. They kept on asking him if he was sure he couldn't identify any of the perpetrators. He was able to assure them he could not.

A few months later that police station and its' officers were arrested for several murders of tourist. What the Lord had spoke to him saved his life. And his praying in the Spirit had built his spirit up so that he was calm in the midst of the storm.

There has been a study done by Oral Roberts Medical University that studied the brain to find out what happens when one speaks in tongues. I know, you see an automatic bias there. Unfortunately, no one else will do this study. So, you are just going to have to not believe it for that reason. But ask yourself if there is any university that could have done that study, and you would believe it?

Anyways, this study showed that when speaking in tongues, the brain released a type of endorphin that is not released in any other way, and it is a healing agent, and a calming agent. But we know that couldn't be true, don't we?

Prophecy:My own experiences that don't count have seen so many incredible and extremely accurate prophetic accounts, that of all the gifts, this is the one I have the most faith to access. I have seen it bring so many into the Kingdom of God. I have seen 10 people at a time come into the Kingdom through just a prophetic word about something that I shouldn't have known about at all. I have seen 50 on the streets come to the Lord in a two day period because of the prophetic. I used to bring my Junior High kids on the streets to minister. One of them walked up to a guy who looked like a straight-laced Mormon. No way could he look like a drug pusher. But Jon nailed him with it, and the guy pulled out $125 of weed out of his pocket that he was going to sell, and threw it away. He gave his life to the Lord right there, and then was baptized with the Holy Ghost, and spoke in tongues right there on the streets of Sacremento.

I have so many stories like that. In fact, I have much better stories than that. That one is special to me because a 13 year old was involved.

And I ask you why anyone would have a problem with that? And why would God get rid of such major weapons like miracles to bring people to the Lord? Because the "perfect" is come? I am sorry, but the Cessationist don't see much of the above happen. Rarely do they lead anyone to the Lord on the streets. (See "Pentecostalism Revistited". I begged for their stories. Not one.)

As to how I tell the difference? First, does it bring glory to Jesus? Second, does it violate the word? (Not is it in the word. God is more than original enough to do miracles not recorded in the word. Otherwise we are limited to very few ailments to see healed, and our miracles have to be things like splitting the Red Sea. I haven't needed that one yet.) Third, the fruit of the miracle.

Mark 9:38-40 are good references. I John 4 is also.

Major points being that a miracle cannot be done in Jesus name, and not be from God. This is the point where "Lord, Lord did we not do miracles in your name" is always mentioned. I love that. It doesn't say they did miracles. It says they claimed to have done them. Big difference. If they had, then Jesus' words about miracles can't be done in His name would be contradicted by this verse.

No, instead what probaly happened is that the person they prayed for had faith in God, and naively believed that this person was a good person when they prayed for them. But it was their faith in God that caused the healing. That happened to my mom who was healed in a Leroy Jenkins meeting of a terminal disease. This man was later arrested for attempted murder. (Now there are aspects to his side that state he might have been set up, and that comes from some unbiased sources. I don't know.) But my point is, my momma had faith in God. If this man did do these things, then when he stands before God, he will probaly claim his works before God, and then he will hear those words. I hope he isn't guilty, but it is definitely a possibility.

When any miracle draws attention from God toward the man, and the man seems to encourage it, I am suspect of the person. But every good gift comes from God.

Now if a miracle comes with some sort of chain and ball to it, then I will call it demonic. That happens in the occult version of miracles. Often, a spirit is causing a sickness, and so the witch doctor will "remove" the spirit, thus causing the sickness to disapear. But almost always something worse takes its' place. This is a sign of demonic activity, and of course the witch doctor is not a good sign either.

When I run into this I ask the person who wants the second curse to be removed to repent of all the things occultic he has been involved in. And of course all of his other activities. This is common overseas. Usually I have to cast out demons too. This always needs the gift of discernment by the way. Another reason why I believe in the gifts.

Also I remember this passage by Jesus. Remember the one about "If you ask for bread, does your Father give you a stone? If you ask for the Holy Spirit, do you get demons?" I think that God made this a simple thing. Any child can get it. When Grandma is sick, they go to God. It is pretty simple to come to the conclusion that when they do so, devils aren't going to heal her. They don't like little kids thinking that God healed their Grandma, thus giving God the glory. It might make them into Jesus Fanatics.

I believe that man is the agent in this because this is how God works. This is why so much time was spent on teaching us how to properly do these things. The word does not tell us to wait for God to sovereignly go around doing miracles. No, it demands faith on our part, and persistent asking. There are other parts to the equation, but point is, God wants us in the equation. And we will make mistakes, and alot of people won't get healed or some "prophet" who is too full of himself will be exposed. This only confirms our need to trust in God, and praise Him only. That nothing we do should rob God of the glory due Him.

And the gist of I Cor. 13 is that even if we do these things, if we have not love, it doesn't matter. Not one bit. Zilch. Nada. Zero!

But logic and reason looked for a reason to not believe. And they turned it into getting rid of the gifts. They ignored all the other verses, church history, and the incredible fruit out there. All they needed is just a little opening, and there they were. It gave them an excuse by giving God an excuse.

And then years later, when there child, mother, wife or themself are in need of a miracle, they find out just how much they wished they believed in such. And that is the painful truth. I have prayed for atheist on their death beds. I have prayed for sceptics also. Christian sceptics are always the most stubborn though. Their pride keeps guys like me away for along time. Sometimes always. And I cry because of it. Their pride didn't keep me away. It kept their loving God away. A God who Can!

[Scudbuddy]

You hear of demoniacs being set free (This is toward Neb, since most Cessationist actually believe in Demonic possession.) and you figure they are putting on a show or are just mentally ill.

Someone claims on a faith healers program that they can walk suddenly, and your mind goes to the movie "Elmer Gantry" (A fictional book inspired it) and you already know that the sick person is a plant.

This is what your logic and reason has done to you. It has not made you a people of faith but a people of doubt. It has made you Cynical Pessimist, not Believing Optimist.

Hey Scudbuddy,

What you are expecting me to do is have a blind faith. That is something that the bible condemns. We are supposed to test everything. I am not going to believe in anyone

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Healing:In plain writing, I will ask why would you not want the gift of healing? When you are sick, and the doctor tells you you have a month to live, it is kind of nice to start off the prayer from genuine faith that God still heals the sick

Scud,

Yes, GOD heals the sick. But no longer through human mediums.

Of course then you write to Neb, and tell him of your experience, and he tells you it doesn't matter. Just the word. He returns your parrot who flew off to him so he could be around somebody more reasonable. But what did you expect from a parrot named Hume?

And yet you still keep telling every one of your wonderful experiences. What good does it do? Your experiences are not the bible. I am not going to believe you on just your word. (no offence) You keep wanting me to believe what you have experienced. Why? Is this the only proof that you have? Something that you have experienced. Because if this is the case, then maybe I should just give you all my experiences and hearsay about how they are fake. Who do we believe?

Point being. It is so much funner believeing in something that just might come in handy one day. And though I was having some fun with you, the truth of the matter is that I am actually quoting from personal knowledge.

Is this the main reason why you believe in gifts? Because its fun!

Tongues: I have found that just like the word says, it builds up my spirit. It is also used to pray when you do not know how to pray for a certain situation. God intercedes for us according to Romans 8.

So you talk in tongues?

So when you don

Edited October 5, 2004 by Nebuchadnezza10

[Botz]

As Charlie brown might have put it..."Good grief" .

[Dave123]

For the sake of space, I'm going to deal with the stuff that is more directly connected to the questions.

Sorry, brother. I have had a long day. I had a flat tire in the middle of nowhere. The tires nubs were on so tight, couldn't get them off to save my life. So I prayed for a miracle, and some guy who is not so stupid with the mechanical things of life stopped and applied force that I knew not how to apply. I wasn't flagging anyone down either. (He stood on doo-hickey till nubs came loose.) Now you know why I believe in miracles. I would be completely lost without them. God has to send angels and healings just to cover my sorry bee-hind. I would have died at the age of conception without them.

This is not a miracle, Scud. Before you say it, to say it is not a miracle is not to say God didn't do it. I'm glad he answered your prayer.

But seriously, why do I believe in miracles as being valid for today?

Healing:In plain writing, I will ask why would you not want the gift of healing?

This is no answer, Scud. What do you, Scud, believe the gift of healing is, and is for?

I just should've believed."

But I do believe that God will answer prayers according to His will, but this is not the gift of healing.

Is that plain enough.

No, you couldn't have been more unclear.

Miracles:Broken down in the middle of nowhere. Need a miracle. It is so much nicer than not believing in one. (I have so many more much more major miracles that have happened. But todays' miracle was enough for me.)

Gift of miracles, what is it and what is it's purpose?

Tongues: I have found that just like the word says, it builds up my spirit. It is also used to pray when you do not know how to pray for a certain situation. God intercedes for us according to Romans 8.

Now we are at least heading in the right direction. So you believe tongues are for edifying yourself, and for prayer when you don't know how to pray according to Romans 8. One down.

Prophecy:My own experiences that don't count have seen so many incredible and extremely accurate prophetic accounts, that of all the gifts, this is the one I have the most faith to access.

So you believe prophecy is to make predictions. Two down.

As to how I tell the difference?

First, does it bring glory to Jesus?

Second, does it violate the word? (Not is it in the word. God is more than original enough to do miracles not recorded in the word.

Third, the fruit of the miracle.

Mark 9:38-40 are good references. I John 4 is also.

I agree on all three counts here. Actually, 1 and 2 are a result of it being "in the Word" looking from a positive perspective. I'm glad you listed number two, because this dicussion would have been meaningless if our source of truth was different. I'll assume from number two also that you believe that His word is infalible, at least in the original languages, correct me if i'm assuming too much. Three down.

Major points being that a miracle cannot be done in Jesus name, and not be from God. This is the point where "Lord, Lord did we not do miracles in your name" is always mentioned. I love that. It doesn't say they did miracles. It says they claimed to have done them. Big difference. If they had, then Jesus' words about miracles can't be done in His name would be contradicted by this verse.

We can get into that later. I may agree with you, depending on where you go with it.

When any miracle draws attention from God toward the man, and the man seems to encourage it, I am suspect of the person. But every good gift comes from God.

I couldn't agree more.

This always needs the gift of discernment by the way.

I personally believe that the gift of discernment is both a great blessing to a body, but also a heavy burdon for the individual with this gift. The gift of discerment would require lot's of wisdom, and much sorrow comes with much wisdom. BTW, when you pray for wisdom, expect some trials.

And the gist of I Cor. 13 is that even if we do these things, if we have not love, it doesn't matter. Not one bit. Zilch. Nada. Zero!

I couldn't agree more.

But logic and reason looked for a reason to not believe. And they turned it into getting rid of the gifts. They ignored all the other verses, church history, and the incredible fruit out there. All they needed is just a little opening, and there they were. It gave them an excuse by giving God an excuse.

We won't need to use logic and reasoning in a bad way. We will simply be good Bereans. We won't ignore any verses, both sides, we will go over all of them in time, if you like. And, of course, Lord willing.

I'm still unclear on your position on healing and miracles. Your testimonies are nice, but still didn't give me a clear picture of what you believe they are and are for.

God bless

Edited October 5, 2004 by Dave123

[Scudbuddy]

Healing:In plain writing, I will ask why would you not want the gift of healing? When you are sick, and the doctor tells you you have a month to live, it is kind of nice to start off the prayer from genuine faith that God still heals the sick

Scud,

Yes, GOD heals the sick. But no longer through human mediums.

Of course then you write to Neb, and tell him of your experience, and he tells you it doesn't matter. Just the word. He returns your parrot who flew off to him so he could be around somebody more reasonable. But what did you expect from a parrot named Hume?

And yet you still keep telling every one of your wonderful experiences. What good does it do? Your experiences are not the bible. I am not going to believe you on just your word. (no offence) You keep wanting me to believe what you have experienced. Why? Is this the only proof that you have? Something that you have experienced. Because if this is the case, then maybe I should just give you all my experiences and hearsay about how they are fake. Who do we believe?

Point being. It is so much funner believeing in something that just might come in handy one day. And though I was having some fun with you, the truth of the matter is that I am actually quoting from personal knowledge.

Is this the main reason why you believe in gifts? Because its fun!

Tongues: I have found that just like the word says, it builds up my spirit. It is also used to pray when you do not know how to pray for a certain situation. God intercedes for us according to Romans 8.

So you talk in tongues?

So when you don

[Dave123]

Scud

I'll have to read it tonight and reply tomorrow. I''m printing it out right now

God bless

Dave