Dragoon Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 378 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/18/1965 Share Posted September 15, 2011 You say the words, but you don't seem to want to accept what they mean. 'Catholic' means 'universal' church, not the Roman Catholic Church... yet because the RCC has kept that word in their title, you assume it applies to them. The universal church is not one ruled by Bishops, but one ruled by Christ. Ignatius makes this clear when he says, "wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." He does not say, "wherever the Catholic Church is, there is Jesus Christ." Where is Christ today? How often, except when saying that he gave authority to the RCC, do you mention Christ? Why is HE not at the centre of your discussion... instead of 'bishops'? The RCC is not bereft of Jesus Christ, though it would be difficult to find Him there. Neither is the Protestant church ful of Christ. The Holy Spirit and those guided by Him are blown where God wills. When Clement says, "For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops", who is the 'I' he speaks of? Is it a Pope... or God? How many universal churches were there when Ignatius was writing? Do you think there were other Churches at the time? Please tell me what they were and if they ignored the Bishops of the universal Church. God appoints Bishops. The Pope is a Bishop. It is clear that Ignatius held beliefs consistent with the Catholic Church. His views are not consistent with protestantism. Do you believe that Ignatius was a false teacher? I do not weigh God's teachings by the views of men. I believe that Ignatius was a follower of Jesus Christ... and a man Do you disgree? There is and has always been only one 'universal 'body of Christ/church. It is made up of all who follow Christ Jesus in spirit and in truth, and it is not headed by any man, but by Jesus Christ our Great High Preist. Jesus appointed leaders and gave them authority. Ignatius learned the gospel from one of these leaders.(John) Why do you believe that you are right and Ignatius is wrong? I believe that God's Word is right. You seem to assume that merely because God places a person in a position of authority within the body of Christ, he and his ideas will be perfect. That's wrong though. There is only One who is good. If this were not true, there would never have been a need for Jesus to be our perfect sacrifice... because there would have been many 'perfect' people by your assumption. When the curtain in the temple was torn in two at Jesus' crucifixion, what do you think that signified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nChrist Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 438 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,947 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 301 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/28/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1949 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The RCC doesn't RESEMBLE the HOLY BIBLE in PRACTICE or TEACHING. http://carm.org/roman-catholicism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,425 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,578 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Chester, Look by the much speaking you think you will be justified in your belief! It is simple my friend Jesus said only one Father ... His Father! So in those passages where father is mentioned it is referring to earthly progenitor or one who Spiritually led them to Christ... Simple huh and neither were someone whom you would bring your sins to confess and receive forgiveness from! the catholic religion is a whore of satan- I am sorry to be so blunt with you Chester but that is as I see your proscribed dogma as perversions against God's Word of Truth. It is very hard for me to separate you from your spew, but I am trying to maintain love for you! So much in fact I am leaving this thread chester and R&R in His glorious truth for awhile! Struggling Steven I post historical facts and documents. I quote scripture. You post insults and distortions. Let the reader decide! You still haven't answered this question: What do you call your father? I always called my earthly father .. Dad.. but my beginning was Eph 1:4-6 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. NKJV Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I watched Pink Floyd's old movie The Wall the other night. Say what you like about it (I love their music), a couple of lines from one song spring to mind.... Not scriptural in any way, but pertinant to this thread.... "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control" "All and all it's just another brick in the Wall" My point being, I don't need no mans writing, I don't need no mans doctrine. All in all that just builds a wall between truth and the true Jesus. I just need Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 378 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/18/1965 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I believe that God's Word is right. You seem to assume that merely because God places a person in a position of authority within the body of Christ, he and his ideas will be perfect. That's wrong though. There is only One who is good. If this were not true, there would never have been a need for Jesus to be our perfect sacrifice... because there would have been many 'perfect' people by your assumption. When the curtain in the temple was torn in two at Jesus' crucifixion, what do you think that signified? Catholics also believe that God's Word is right. We believe the bible is the Word of God. Doesn't it concern you that the early Christians interpreted scripture like the Catholic Church rather than like you? Catholics believe these words, for example: John 6 53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Ignatius understood these words as the Catholic Church believes them, and he was a follower of John! Wouldn't he know? Unfortunately, Catholics also assign far too much weight to tradition, which is where you get a lot of the false teachings within the RCC. I've read quite a few writings by 'early Christians', and on the whole I find their writings in accord with what I believe. Where they differ from scripture, which do you lean towards? Do you place man before God's Word, or God's Word above all? For myself, I weigh men's thoughts by scripture, not scripture by man's wisdom. ----- Once again you use scripture, not to glorify Christ, but to argue that your 'church' is right. That's sad. All Christians I'm aware of 'believe' John 6:53-54. I'm assuming the RCC still holds to the idea of transubstantiation? If that's what you're trying to argue about, then please note the rest of what Jesus says in that same passage of scripture. Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. (John 6:35) Note the parallel idea. Jesus is speaking of His feeding and quenching, but speaks of it in terms of coming to Him and believing in Him. He later (in verses 53-54) speaks of this metaphorically as eating His body and drinking His blood. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40) Again, immediately after the passage you post, Christ repeats. It is BELIEF in Christ, not a piece of ritual magic, which saves. If a person does not believe or accept Jesus Christ, and eats the body and blood of Christ... do you think they would be saved? If you want to trust in RCC tradition and believe bread and wine miraculously become flesh and blood, that's your right, and it won't affect your salvation. But its hardly necessary to believe it. Scripture explains itself with the guidance of the Spirit. Its nice that Ignatius understands this the way the Roman Catholicism does. I'm comfortable trusting in what scripture actually says though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 378 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/18/1965 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Catholics also believe that God's Word is right. We believe the bible is the Word of God. Doesn't it concern you that the early Christians interpreted scripture like the Catholic Church rather than like you? Catholics believe these words, for example: John 6 53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Ignatius understood these words as the Catholic Church believes them, and he was a follower of John! Wouldn't he know? Do these responses actually matter to you, or do you simply jump to your next point of argument? Do you care about who God truly is, or are you committed to the Roman Catholic Church despite any scripture or logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 378 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/18/1965 Share Posted September 15, 2011 I watched Pink Floyd's old movie The Wall the other night. Say what you like about it (I love their music), a couple of lines from one song spring to mind.... Not scriptural in any way, but pertinant to this thread.... "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control" "All and all it's just another brick in the Wall" My point being, I don't need no mans writing, I don't need no mans doctrine. All in all that just builds a wall between truth and the true Jesus. I just need Jesus. Heretic!!! All true Christians like the Eagles better! There was some great music that came out of the early 80s though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Its nice that Ignatius understands this the way the Roman Catholicism does. I'm comfortable trusting in what scripture actually says though. You deny what scripture says. Ignatius learned the gospel from John. John quoted Jesus as saying: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Ignatius said this regarding the gnostics(protestants of the time): "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110). Here's what Paul said: 1 Cor 11 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. And finally, here's what Martin Luther said: "Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present. Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.” –Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391 Yep, Luther was a real fan of the Catholic Church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,264 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,993 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 15, 2011 I watched Pink Floyd's old movie The Wall the other night. Say what you like about it (I love their music), a couple of lines from one song spring to mind.... Not scriptural in any way, but pertinant to this thread.... "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control" "All and all it's just another brick in the Wall" My point being, I don't need no mans writing, I don't need no mans doctrine. All in all that just builds a wall between truth and the true Jesus. I just need Jesus. Heretic!!! All true Christians like the Eagles better! There was some great music that came out of the early 80s though. Mark me down as being in the true Christians group........ the Eagles Rock.... Second Begees... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted September 15, 2011 The Catholic church was the first christian business. Big money in false idols and graven images Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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