Isaac (saved) vs. Esau (unsaved)

[oak]

The scripture that always jolted me (in the Bible) is, “As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,” (Rom 9:13) How can that be? Juxtapose this with: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism. , (Acts 10:34) Contrast this with, : “though they were not yet born and had nothing either good and bad – in order that God’s purpose of election might continue not of works but because of his call….” (Rom 9:11). In all the wisdom I have read from "Worthy Members," I do not think anyone will answer this with authority. I feel the Bible is full of descriptions that humans can't perfectly understand and just barely touch upon the Glory of God. God is a constant and consistent Being, it is our human nature that creates the changes in assigning God with fluctuations.

Back to the verse…. Isaac and Esau were both far from perfect. Let’s take a look at Isaac: Isaac stole Esau’s birth right by giving him a meal when he was hungry (is this a noble act?) and faked being him (Esau) by putting on sheep fur when it came time for the blessing from Jacob (their father) – though prompted by his mother. Jacob won by deception. Doesn’t God love men who have no guile? Esau was a hunter and and depicted as killing Nimrod who had Adam’s cloak; truthfully I need help with this action of Esau. The best I found was, “Esau followed the path of death, for he killed Nimrod..." ((Midrash Rabbah Bereshit 65:16) - Pirkei D'Rebbi Eliezer chapter 31).”

The summation is rather simple. Isaac searched for God in his heart, a truthful search of what is truly important. His brother that was born first and was enamored of the world and searched for earthly glory.... So let us at least be honest with ourselves about our true search. I know scripture say’s that the older will serve the youngest and God will not be unheard. The most important part is what we in our inner hearts search and seek out. The initial verse is full of things that we might look at differently. Please feel free to comment.

[Isaiah 6:8]

I would say that Esau's Heart was revealed when he threw away his birthright for a bowl of beans. Yes he was tricked but he valued so little the eternal things.

[other one]

Isaac did not steal Essau's birthright, he traded a bowl of beans for it. Jacob appearantly was not aware of that and it was the only way Isaac was going to get what was his.

Also, I'm not sure how much of the Midrash we should be taking to heart.

[mizzdy]

Esau didn't care about his birthright thats the thing, he cared so little about it and what it contained and pertained to, all he could see and feel was his immediate need. Esau also didn't have an inkling of the spiritual side of things either and perhaps Jacob didn't either so much but God did and had a plan. Jacob with his mothers insistance and help did take the birthright but it was not stolen from Esau but they did trick good old dad. But if it had been Gods will for none of that to happen it would not have. God knew what was in Esaus heart and what was in Jacob's, He knew which would willinging follow and accept Gods rule in their hearts and lifes.

First off there is no scriptural support that Esau killed Nimrod that comes from the book of Jasher which is what the sages used to write that midrash. Jacob became the father of the nation of Israel just as God wanted it to be. Just as the birthright is physical its also spiritual and Esau failed at them both.

shalom,

Mizz

[oak]

Esau didn't care about his birthright thats the thing, he cared so little about it and what it contained and pertained to, all he could see and feel was his immediate need. Esau also didn't have an inkling of the spiritual side of things either and perhaps Jacob didn't either so much but God did and had a plan. Jacob with his mothers insistance and help did take the birthright but it was not stolen from Esau but they did trick good old dad. But if it had been Gods will for none of that to happen it would not have. God knew what was in Esaus heart and what was in Jacob's, He knew which would willinging follow and accept Gods rule in their hearts and lifes.

First off there is no scriptural support that Esau killed Nimrod that comes from the book of Jasher which is what the sages used to write that midrash. Jacob became the father of the nation of Israel just as God wanted it to be. Just as the birthright is physical its also spiritual and Esau failed at them both.

shalom,

Mizz

I thank all of you for your replies. Mizzdy, took the most effort so I will answer her.

Anyway, Mizzdy, with hindsight we can judge correctly (thank you for Nimrod insight). But let’s put it in human terms: Jacob loved Esau because he was an outdoorsman, loved hunting and fixing meals for his dad (Jacob) he was capable of taking care of himself while Isaac was the nerd. The saved father wanted the unsaved son to inherit the promise. Wow, when you are part of God do you not sense God’s Will? Jacob didn’t. Part of the reason I wrote this is many unbelieving friends find fault with God/ Jesus Christ. How can Christ make merchants flee from a Synagogue? How is it, that Christ disrespects his elders, the Pharisees? Well part of the reason I think is that faults can become victories in the Name of God. Greed for God, an overwhelming pre-occupation with God, a service to God only is good and justifiable. The point is Isaac was not great morally and didn’t sacrifice as a Christian should, yet this story gives a wide interpretation in terms of things we devote to God.

Oak

[OldShep]

The Hebrew words for loved and hated refer not to God’s emotions but to His choice of one over the other for a covenant relationship (cf. Gen_29:31-35; Deu_21:15, Deu_21:17; Luk_14:26).

To hate someone meant to reject him and to disavow any loving association with him (cf. Psa_139:21). Nor do these words by themselves indicate the eternal destinations of Jacob and Esau. The verbs refer to God’s acts in history toward both of the two nations which descended from the two brothers.

HATE, v.t. [L. odi, for hodi.]

1. To dislike greatly; to have a great aversion to. It expresses less than abhor, detest, and abominate, unless pronounced with a peculiar emphasis.

How long will fools hate knowledge? Prov 1.

Blessed are ye when men shall hate you. Luke 6.

The Roman tyrant was contented to be hated, if he was but feared.

2. In Scripture, it signifies to love less.

If any man come to me, and hate not father and mother, &c. Luke 14.

He that spareth the rod, hateth his son. Prov 13.

HATE, n. Great dislike or aversion; hatred.

Peace be with you:

Dennis

[oak]

To OldShep: excellent post, I appreciate that kind of insight in terms of word definitions. Though I still believe doesn't change moods, it is our free will that enables us to come nearer or further away from God the Father. God the Son took on a human form along with His God nature, so that becomes a bit different.

Chestertonerules wrote:

"I don't think we can conclude from scripture that Esau was not saved. All we know was that he lost his inheritance. That was the path he was given by God.

Later in Genesis he seems to be a very successful and Godly man. He forgives the brother who cheated him and welcomes he and his family with gifts and love."

To Chestertonrules: I see what you’re saying but in (Romans 9,) Pharaoh is brought in as an example, following Esau. Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, both are examples of "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction....” (Rom 9:22)

[oak]

Chestertonrules

I think that is a stretch.

Check this out:

Gen 13

1 Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two female servants. 2 He put the female servants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother.

4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept. 5 Then Esau looked up and saw the women and children. “Who are these with you?” he asked.

Jacob answered, “They are the children God has graciously given your servant.”

6 Then the female servants and their children approached and bowed down. 7 Next, Leah and her children came and bowed down. Last of all came Joseph and Rachel, and they too bowed down.

8 Esau asked, “What’s the meaning of all these flocks and herds I met?”

“To find favor in your eyes, my lord,” he said.

9 But Esau said, “I already have plenty, my brother. Keep what you have for yourself.”

10 “No, please!” said Jacob. “If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like seeing the face of God, now that you have received me favorably. 11 Please accept the present that was brought to you, for God has been gracious to me and I have all I need.” And because Jacob insisted, Esau accepted it.

12 Then Esau said, “Let us be on our way; I’ll accompany you.”

13 But Jacob said to him, “My lord knows that the children are tender and that I must care for the ewes and cows that are nursing their young. If they are driven hard just one day, all the animals will die. 14 So let my lord go on ahead of his servant, while I move along slowly at the pace of the flocks and herds before me and the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.”

15 Esau said, “Then let me leave some of my men with you.”

“But why do that?” Jacob asked. “Just let me find favor in the eyes of my lord.”

16 So that day Esau started on his way back to Seir.

First of all I think you’re quoting (Gen 33). The overwhelming evidence is that Jacob feared Esau and was very cautious with him. I’ll just mention what Jacob said to Esau during their meeting (which you quote as well) “… and I will lead on slowly, at the pace of the live stock that are ahead of me and at the pace of the children, until I come to my lord in Seir.” But Jacob didn’t do what he said but rather "journeyed to Succoth….” If everything was well, why didn’t Jacob follow his brother Esau, to Seir? Finally Paul, years upon years later wrote: [God saying] “… Jacob I loved but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9 13) I realize hate has different connotations thanks to Old Shep, but they are not positive. If Esau found favor with God, I don’t think Paul would have written something like that. For the record, I would like God to favor as many people as possible but in terms of Esau, I think God was not too favorable. As far as damnation, I conceed that I can't prove that but it's not unlikely.

Oak

PS AFaithfulone, I'm sorry I missed your post. Let us say that though Jacob played a part in going against Isaac, Isaac was the one who took action and made Isaac sell his birthright for a meal.

[Matthitjah]

Paul spoke of the sort of fellow that Esau was in the book of Phillipians;

Php 3:18

(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Php 3:19

Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

[Matthitjah]

Paul spoke of the sort of fellow that Esau was in the book of Phillipians;

Php 3:18

(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Php 3:19

Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Did he cheat someone out of their rightful inheritance?

Was David an adulterer, Abraham a liar, and Moses a murderer? I don't see the relevance to your point.

However, there is this,

Heb 12:16

Lest there be any immoral, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright.

Heb 12:17

For you know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.