The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[taylor30]

At what point will some of you take God's Promise that He's given you a New Birth and Eternal Life? When in doubt, go back to rule number ONE - God ALWAYS keeps His Promises most perfectly! Some of you would argue with God about this.

Failure to rightly divide the word of truth resulting in gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding is the problem. According to some of your logic, no man would ever be Saved.

Let me ask you a question N'Christ. We have been discussing the question over OSAS for sometime now. We have talked about people who went to an alter and accepted Christ into their heart, only later to turn away from him and return to sin. Many who say they believe in OSAS have stated that chances are, they were not really saved. I would agree, even though they did go through the same process that others did that will continue to follow Christ all of their lives. If it is possible to only think you are saved, where is the security?

We really aren't as far apart as everyone seems to believe we are. Let's look at where most of us agree. We all believe salvation is by faith in Christ. We all believe that those who are chosen of God will make it to heaven. Most of us believe that when we are born again, there will be evidence of it in our lives, in that we will bear fruit and do good works, not to be saved, but because we are saved. We seem to all believe that it is possible to think we were born again, but weren't really. The only thing where I see the difference is that some are claiming that Christians sin just like unbelievers do, committing the same sinful works that scripture says will keep us from any inheritance in the Kingdom of God, and others believe that is not the case. They believe that the fact those people continue in sin shows they are not really Christians. There is not really as big of a gulf between us as it appears on the surface. It is just that nobody wants to think it is possible that they were one of those who only thought they were saved, when it wasn't the case. They want to believe they must be saved forever, regardless of what they do. It is more about security for self than a major doctrinal divide.

You know, that's a great point. It doesn't prove or disprove OSAS, but it is good to see there is a common element between us all. However, doesn't 1 John set out a series of tests to see if you are saved? There are verses that indicate you can know if you are saved.

There are many things in scripture that would make it appear we are saved, not only in 1 John, but in Galatians, where it speaks of bearing the fruit of the Spirit. It is just that some will seem to have those characteristics in their lives for a time, but later fall away. The question is, were they ever really chosen of God to be saved? The fact they walked away would seem to indicate they were not.

I would like to point out a passage of scripture. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. This is a very good passage to answer the question of what happens if a christian continues in sin or walks away from the faith. The answer to it is that he will lose all his Heavenly rewards, though he will still be saved. The error many are making on this thread is that while they claim salvation is a gift, they then say the individual is responsible for keeping it through his works. This is false. If salvation is not earned by works, it certainly cannot be kept works. How would we feel if someone gave us a house, but said " Now you must be a good person or I will take it back ". We would say its not really a gift then, or at the least it would be a gift with strings attached. Yet that is exactly what some are saying on here when they claim that sin can make you lose salvation. God does not have a return counter. You CAN'T give back his gifts. Sure scripture says its possible to continue in sin and even walk away, HOWEVER this is NOT the same as losing salvation. Please people, read the scripture at face value and quit trying to change it to fit your preconcieved ideas of what you think it should say. If you have a problem with the way God decided to grant salvation, take it up with him but don't attempt to change what he said and argue with those who are actually reading scripture as it was intended to be read.

This is speaking of works, not sins. The word translated work is the Greek word ergon, and it means an act, deed, doing, labour. It is not speaking of sin. I am not disputing that those truly called of God will be saved. I am saying that those who are really saved will have a changed life. If they don't, they aren't really saved. They may have gone through the motions, but they weren't really of God. This passage does nothing to disprove that.

I would agree with that in 90% of cases. However unless you are willing to say a christian loses free will at salvation, you have to consider at least the possibility that even a true christian can change his mind and walk away from God. Scripture assures us God keeps our salvation safe, but it doesn't say he forces our obedience. While a person living,in sin doesn't look like he could be saved, ONLY God is qualified to make that call. The above passage is talking about works, but most sins are works. Many commentators agree with what I said on that passage. The works that are burnt up are not exclusively sins, but it does include them, so the point is correct.

[Pilgrim_of_the_Dispersion]

Your separation of them is incorrect, a condition is meaningless without its object.

You can't get one without the other, they are linked as cause and effect.

The gift is conditioned on jumping up and down. . .no jumping, no gift. . .no cause, no effect.

The new birth (salvation) is not conditioned on, or linked to anything but God's election.

Yep. You're definitely not understanding this yet. Let me break it down another level. I might not be being very clear.

Let's go back to the analogy of someone offering you a car if you jump up and down.

Now let's say he had never come up to you and offered you a car. So you jump up and down just because you feel like it. Do you get a car? No, because you had not been offered it in return for your act of obedience. Now imagine you go to a car dealership and jump up and down for the car salesmen. Will they give you a car? Of course not. You didn't earn it by jumping up and down. That's not a payment for the car. And now are you somehow saying that when someone offers you a car to jump up and down, that you are paying for the car? No, he's still awarding it to you without your deserving it, but he would not have done so it you had not done as he had asked. Yes, there is a cause and effect. That, however, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you earned the gift.

Go ahead and read Ephesians 2:5-10. Notice that it says our works do not save us, but that God's grace saves us. And yet in verse 10 it said we are made for good works, and that it was purposed beforehand that we would walk in them. While works don't save us, they are still purposed for us by God. And while works don't save us, God still decides whether or not to save us based on whether or not we are obedient to Him (once again, read Hebrews 5:9).

Consider, Pilgrim, the thief on the cross. He was neither obedient nor baptized, yet he was given new birth; i.e., saved, for there is no salvation without the new birth.

Consider the fact that baptism for the remission of our sins did not exist before Jesus died and was resurrected. In fact, none of the New Testament (the covenant, the commandment) was instated while Jesus lived. (Hebrews 9:16-17)

Actually, basing the rebirth in the will of God instead of one's choice (which Jn 1:13 denies) does not mean that everyone in existence would be reborn.

Reborn is the spiritual resurrection of our dead spirits (Col 2:13; Eph 2:1) into eternal life, whereby we believe unto salvation.

Consider, Pilgrim, what Jesus says in the following:

Jesus says that it is only those who are born again that can see the kingdom of God (understand by faith what ie means)--(Jn 3:3).

Jesus says that it is only those who have crossed over from (spiritual) death (Col 2:13) to (spiritual) life that can hear (Jn 5:24-25),

because the children of the devil (unsaved) cannot hear (Jn 8:43-44, 47),

for they have ears that do not hear (Lk 14:35).

So I cannot see or hear until I am born again (Jn 3:3), until I have crossed over from death to life (Jn 5:24-25),

until I am no longer a child of the devil, because I must be a child of God in order to hear (Jn 8:47).

And that's because spritually dead men (Col 2:13; Eph 1:2) cannot spiritually see or hear.

They must first be raised from spiritual death (Jn 3:3, 5:25) before they can spiritually see or hear, and then believe.

Jesus says that I must be one of the sheep (born again) in order to believe (Jn 10:26; cf Ac 13:48),

because darkness cannot comprehend the light (Jn 1:5).

To come is to believe (Jn 6:35, 7:37-38), but Jesus says I cannot come unless the Father has enabled me (Jn 6:65); i.e., raised me from spiritual death to eternal life (new birth).

To receive is to believe (Jn 1:12), but Paul says the natural man without the Spirit given at rebirth cannot receive

the things that come from the Spirit of God,

that they are foolishness to him because he cannot see them (understand by faith what they mean)--(1Co 2:14).

He must have the Spirit given at rebirth (Jn 3:5; Ro 8:9) in order to see that Jesus is the Son of God (Mt 16:17) and to believe to salvation (Jn 3:18),

because faith comes only from the grant (gift) of the Spirit (Php 1:29).

There is a huge logical hole in what you are saying, and in fact the implication is that God is choosing for people to NOT be saved.

If you say that we can only be reborn by God's doing, and can only have faith by God's doing, then you're saying that when people do not believe, it is because God has not granted them belief. And yet we read in the Scriptures that God desires for ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3,4) If it were completely up to God as to who came to the knowledge of the truth, then clearly God would choose for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. But He has given us agency over ourselves, He has given us volition, He has given us free will. Therefore it is OUR choice whether or not we have faith, whether or not believe. The way that He grants us faith (Philippians 1:29) is that He has made known His existence to mankind and allows us to have knowledge of Him. But it remains our choice to believe or not. Remember, in Mark 16:15-16, Jesus tells His disciples to preach the gospel to everyone, and that whoever believes and is baptized would be saved. It's clearly their choice. If it was God's, we would have universal belief. And we would also have no free will.

So Jesus was only half right in Jn 3:3?

The kingdom of God is the rule of God, wherever God rules.

"The kingdom of God is within you" (Lk 17:21) because God rules in the hearts of believers.

One cannot see the rule of God without faith.

God rules everywhere. He rules the universe and has done so for eternity. But whether or not mankind has recognized this rule is another concept.

And yet the kingdom of God is much different than just any rule. Never in the entire Bible (unless you can find somewhere) does it refer to Israel as the kingdom of God. It refers to Israel as God's people, but that kingdom was physical, and the kingdom of God is spiritual. And it is mentioned in Daniel 2:44 as an entirely different kingdom than Israel. So you're right that the kingdom is in the hearts of believing men, but you're wrong when you say that the kingdom of God is just wherever God rules, because He has rules over everything forever, but He has not always subjected everyone under His rule.

And that's what the kingdom of God is, HIS spiritual people. The church. The kingdom is His subjects, His dominion over a spiritual kingdom, because the kingdom is very much spiritual. But anyway, the way you enter the kingdom of God is by becoming His spiritual people, which requires purification, and the remission of sins. (1 Peter 3:21; Acts 2:38; Colossians 2:12, 1 John 3:1-6)

Okay! Let's do a recap to make sure we stay on topic:

There is no way we can argue that obedience is not required by God for salvation. Hebrews 5:9 says this: "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him," Please, please do not try to twist that into some doctrine that says we don't have to obey to be saved. The word of God says in crystal clarity that salvation is given to all who obey him.

So we know that salvation depends on our obedience. However, that does not mean our obedience creates this salvation for us, or that it earns our salvation. God decided before the beginning of time that He would require us to be obedient to Him before He would save us. But the point of this topic is to discuss whether or not people can lose their salvation, not how they acquire it. So let's remember these verses:

Hebrews 6:4-6:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakes of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

Hebrews 10:26-28:

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sons, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

2 Peter 2:20:

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them that the beginning."

Yeah, I don't really need to say anything in addition to those verses. They speak for themselves. Salvation can be lost. It hinges upon our obedience.

This is speaking of works, not sins. The word translated work is the Greek word ergon, and it means an act, deed, doing, labour. It is not speaking of sin. I am not disputing that those truly called of God will be saved. I am saying that those who are really saved will have a changed life. If they don't, they aren't really saved. They may have gone through the motions, but they weren't really of God. This passage does nothing to disprove that.

All right. That's actually completely false. Sins ARE deeds and actions. In fact, there are many sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21, which are called the WORKS of the flesh. Romans 13:12 tells us to cast of the works of darkness. So just because they are called works does not mean they are simply actions done without any consequence on our soul. In fact, I think a huge mistake in the religious world (mainly those who follow man's denominations, especially those holding to the faiths of Calvinism) is that they don't understand that the word works talks about our actions, our conduct, both of which have direct consequence on our salvation, whether for good or bad.

[He giveth more grace]

And by the way, the kingdom of God that Christ is referring to is partially fulfilled in the church. So, in a way, you can see the kingdom of God, if you can see the people that compose it. However, the kingdom of God will be fully realized in the afterlife. But the kingdom of God usually refers to the church. The church will simply be changed when the saints are in heaven.

The Kingdom of God is simly the rule and reign of Jesus Christ in our hearts, ergo, "Kingdom, it isn't the First Chrch On The Corner" or Christian, per se.

It is more than that. It is a literal Kingdom. It can't be seen in the natural, because it doesn't appear on any map. Only the born again Christian can see it because it takes faith to believe in what you cannot see. When you are born again, you also enter into the Kingdom in that you are granted citizenship. You now have dual citizenship with the Kingdom of God and the nation you reside in and are a citizen of in the natural.

No, it is not more than that, it boils down to are you an obedient servant to King Jesus and enjoy the righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit - it is felt, not seen. You can't grasp it.

[nChrist]

At what point will some of you take God's Promise that He's given you a New Birth and Eternal Life? When in doubt, go back to rule number ONE - God ALWAYS keeps His Promises most perfectly! Some of you would argue with God about this.

Failure to rightly divide the word of truth resulting in gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding is the problem. According to some of your logic, no man would ever be Saved.

Let me ask you a question N'Christ. We have been discussing the question over OSAS for sometime now. We have talked about people who went to an alter and accepted Christ into their heart, only later to turn away from him and return to sin. Many who say they believe in OSAS have stated that chances are, they were not really saved. I would agree, even though they did go through the same process that others did that will continue to follow Christ all of their lives. If it is possible to only think you are saved, where is the security?

We really aren't as far apart as everyone seems to believe we are. Let's look at where most of us agree. We all believe salvation is by faith in Christ. We all believe that those who are chosen of God will make it to heaven. Most of us believe that when we are born again, there will be evidence of it in our lives, in that we will bear fruit and do good works, not to be saved, but because we are saved. We seem to all believe that it is possible to think we were born again, but weren't really. The only thing where I see the difference is that some are claiming that Christians sin just like unbelievers do, committing the same sinful works that scripture says will keep us from any inheritance in the Kingdom of God, and others believe that is not the case. They believe that the fact those people continue in sin shows they are not really Christians. There is not really as big of a gulf between us as it appears on the surface. It is just that nobody wants to think it is possible that they were one of those who only thought they were saved, when it wasn't the case. They want to believe they must be saved forever, regardless of what they do. It is more about security for self than a major doctrinal divide.

We are light years apart - on opposite ends of the spectrum. I ask the same questions again. Assurance of Salvation is not only possible - God intended us to have assurance of Salvation.

There are NO once Saved people who are no longer Saved - they weren't Saved in the first place. Many self-professing Christians have never been Saved - they simply warm a pew 1 hour per week. A truly Saved, Born-Again Christian is Saved forever and has received God's Promises of Eternal Life and much more. Some people grossly confuse Salvation with:

rewards that are over and above Salvation;

exhortations for Christian living;

living testimony before men;

works that are NOT required for Salvation, nor to maintain Salvation;

quantity and quality of fellowship with God.

I didn't think you would answer my question. Why - it would have to put in doubt a Promise from God, and that can't be. It is now time to repeat my entire post again:

At what point will some of you take God's Promise that He's given you a New Birth and Eternal Life? When in doubt, go back to rule number ONE - God ALWAYS keeps His Promises most perfectly! Some of you would argue with God about this.

Failure to rightly divide the word of truth resulting in gross misinterpretation and misunderstanding is the problem. According to some of your logic, no man would ever be Saved.

The Answer: AT THE MOMENT OF SALVATION.

Do you really think that you have a different answer that has a chance of being correct? If so, let's hear it. When in doubt, go back to rule number ONE - God ALWAYS keeps His Promises most perfectly! Some of you would argue with God about this.

[nChrist]

There are only two kinds of people:

1 - Lost - NOT indwelt or Sealed by the Holy Spirit of God.

2 - Saved - INDWELT and SEALED by the Holy Spirit of God.

Ephesians 1:12-13 ASV to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, - in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Those who are Saved have been reborn from above and have the Promises of God. They have Eternal Life according to who - GOD! The side issues address things OTHER than Salvation (i.e. works, rewards, testimony).

[Pilgrim_of_the_Dispersion]

"And having been perfected, He became the author (source) of eternal salvation for all who obey him."

Actually, it can be translated either way, and they both have the same meaning.

τοις υπακουουσιν αυτω πασιν

The first word, the definite article, is in the dative case, to which is attached connecting words in the English such as "to", "for", "in", "with", etc., whichever one works best in the context. Those first three words literally mean "to the they obey him" with the understood object being people (evidenced in the word πασιν, which means "all" or "every"). So in English we would translate it as "to all the ones that obey them" or "for all the ones that obey him." In English we have to substitute the word "that," since it's only implied in the Greek text.

But yeah, anyway, both translations are right, and neither supply a different meaning from the other.

I've addressed Hebrews for Butero here, here and here, as well as addressing Lk 8:13 and 1Jn 2:19.

Yes, and I disagree with what you said, specifically when you said

And those who did not heed this warning, but returned to Judaism, did not "lose their salvation," because their rejection of Christ showed that they were not saved to begin with.

My problem with you saying that is that the passage in Hebrews 6:4-6 says it is impossible to "renew them again to repentance," meaning that they had once repented. The Spirit of GOD is saying that they repented. You cannot judge whether or not they repented at that time. And I would be very thankful if you would provide me with a Scripture or set of Scriptures that states that those who are "really" saved cannot possibly fall away and lose their salvation.

I think the interesting thing about Hebrews is that it warns the Hebrews against disbelief and disobedience, and spurs them towards belief and obedience. Almost as if it's their choice.

Scripture often speaks of professors (who are not possessors) as in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

See Mt 13 parables; Jn 8:30-31, 44, 15:2, 6; Gal 5:4; Heb 6:4-6, 10:29.

Peter is referring here (2:1-22) to the false teachers, in the kingdom but not of the kingdom, whose apostasy is worse than ignorance, because it condemns the way of righteousness.

They condemn it when they say they have knowledge of the way of righteousness, and have found unrighteousness in it, that they have knowledge of its truth, but have found untruth in it.

Regarding the Matthew 13 parable: Jesus condemns those who do not produce fruit. That's what it says. Your belief has colored the passage to say something other than what it clearly says: those who received the seed on stony places were right for receiving the word, but wrong for not enduring persecution. It does not say they were never of the kingdom. Those who receive the seed among the thorns didn't even believe the word in the first place, so they clearly don't apply to what you're saying. There is no distinction in this passage between being "in" the kingdom and not "of" the kingdom. I agree that apostasy is worse than ignorance, however. That's true.

John 8:30-31, 44 doesn't... really.. say anything relevant except that you are supposed to abide in Christ.

John 15:2, 6 simply says that those who do not bear fruit will be cast out. Again, no distinction between being "in" the kingdom and "of" the kingdom.

Galatians 5:4 clearly says that those who attempt to be justified by the law will fall from grace. That does nothing but prove the truth of what the word says about losing salvation. They had the grace of God (salvation...) but they fell from it (no more salvation...). Once again, no distinction between being "in" the kingdom and being "of" the kingdom.

Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:29 also show us that people can fall away from repentance. Still no distinction between being in or of the kingdom.

I'm convinced that you have invented that distinction. I need you to show me from the Scriptures where that distinction is made.

These false teachers returned to their corruption because it had not been dealt with through regeneration.

They are not new creatures, they are still the same old creatures, dogs and sows (v.22), and act according to their nature.

And now Satan binds them more closely, because he has already lost them once to a profession of Jesus Christ,

which makes their latter end (enslavement to Satan in rejection of the way) worse than their first (ignorance, but no rejection).

1) Your entire comment about their regeneration is speculative. But your knowledge of what regeneration is is also wrong, so that doesn't really matter. The "washing of regeneration" (Titus 3:5) is baptism.

2) Since it says they "escaped" the pollutions of the world, they must have been cleansed of their sins. Only God's power can remove you from the pollutions of the world, the sins of the world, and only through baptism, since that is what He in His wisdom has decided to use. And baptism saves you if you have a pure conscience (1 Peter 3:21) and if you did not, you would have not escaped these "pollutions," which this passage says they did. So, I'm going to say they were saved. Your view of them having never been new creatures is speculative, and very clearly conflicts with the statement that they escaped the pollutions of the world.

[He giveth more grace]

1) Your entire comment about their regeneration is speculative. But your knowledge of what regeneration is is also wrong, so that doesn't really matter. The "washing of regeneration" (Titus 3:5) is baptism.

2) Since it says they "escaped" the pollutions of the world, they must have been cleansed of their sins. Only God's power can remove you from the pollutions of the world, the sins of the world, and only through baptism, since that is what He in His wisdom has decided to use. And baptism saves you if you have a pure conscience (1 Peter 3:21) and if you did not, you would have not escaped these "pollutions," which this passage says they did. So, I'm going to say they were saved. Your view of them having never been new creatures is speculative, and very clearly conflicts with the statement that they escaped the pollutions of the world.

You really believe in baptismal regeneration? That reveals a lot. So that tags you as a Calvinist since you like tags. John Calvin was a torturer, a murderer, and he kill a man once who didn't agree with him about infant baptism.

We are regenerated when we pass from death unto life in the New Birth, when God identifed us in the cross (the death of Jesus), when we pass from being a child of Adam to being a child of the New Adam (I and the children which my Father has given me - Jesus).

There is no efficacy in water baptism, only the answer of a good heart ftoward God in obeying his commandment to be baptised. Water baptism is a type and shaddow of being buried Christ and raised (resurrected) with him to walk a new life.

[enoob57]

Here is where the mix up lies. If you are chosen of God to be saved, you will be saved.

No man, including you can cause your end to be anything but eternally saved.

OSAS now you see I have been telling you this for awhile now!

The problem is, you have no way of knowing if you are really one of the chosen of God.

you are in error of Scripture here!

1 Jn 5:6-13

6 This is He who came by water and blood — Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

NKJV

Because you believe you are responsible in part for your own salvation you are deaf to that spoken of above? I hear Their witness everyday in my heart, here, now, praise God for it... for it is my life now and forever... The reception of God's Grace is of helpless humility in and endless thanksgiving as it is to this truth the reaction of works come!

You yourself said that some who think they are saved really aren't. If it is possible to deceive yourself into thinking you are saved, then there is no real security.

You are directly calling God in conflict with yourself

Jn 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

NKJV

You have a problem in rightly dividing His Word Butero ... when you weary from your own efforts you will relax in His Finished Work and you will, as we, place all that you have committed to Him -in His Word of Promise- in it's keeping (for it is impossible for God to lie Heb 6:18...) it is not my body that I labor to grow but my spirit... I do not say I will do this to be sure or seen or ... I will do this Lord because I believe in Your Son and His Word is being written in my heart -> for within it's rooms of His Glory 'The Living Room of God The Holy Spirit' is my favorite place to dwell!

Oh, it exists in the mind of our creator, because he knows the beginning from the end. If he determined that Jeremiah would be his prophet before he was created in the womb would remain faithful and spend eternity in heaven, that is what would happen. If he determined that Judas Iscariot would betray him and die in his sin before he was created in the womb, that would be his fate. At the same time, before betraying Christ, had Judas died, there is no reason to believe he would have wound up in hell?

Butero quit focusing upon the confussion of sin and live in the clearity of truth... it is no shame, as I, to be child like and quite willing to allow God to take care of satan and his imps... we cannot make sin clear to understand for it is outside of God and His Word of Truth! So therefore we make God's Word our understanding and that which is without-> His to deal with 'For that 'IS' what Fathers do! 'Our Daddy will keep and take care of us and to focus upon Him' ... I hope you hear the spirit of what I have said?

He was one of the disciples. In that sense, he was saved,

Judas went out from them to betray The Beautiful Christ... how can you call him one of our own? You error again in the Scripture-

Jn 17:12-13

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

NKJV

1 Jn 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

NKJV

These two understandings must be here as well!

Because Judas was focus on this world and what it held; he could not see Christ's Kingdom of Eternity being formed Spiritually for those who would give up all that is here to gain in faith through His Power all that 'IS' there coming! Oh he saw the power of it but only for money gain, he saw the beauty of receiving but hated the giving it out in sacrifice of self. He would not even repent and turn to God but judged himself by his own resource and his judgment of executing himself - showing he was his and his was the only way and God had no place in Him ->just like his father satan....2Thes 2:3

but later lost, but in reality, that was not the case. That is because the all knowing creator knew he would live long enough to betray the Lord and die in his sins. Not one scripture that the OSAS believers use can prove me wrong, because I am agreeing with them that those God has chosen to be saved can't be lost. If it is God's will, it will prevail.

It is the work of God to renew the mind as it moves that which is formed from His Word to reside in the New Birth

1Jn 3... from beginning to end! Love, Steven

[Pilgrim_of_the_Dispersion]

You really believe in baptismal regeneration? That reveals a lot. So that tags you as a Calvinist since you like tags. John Calvin was a torturer, a murderer, and he kill a man once who didn't agree with him about infant baptism.

We are regenerated when we pass from death unto life in the New Birth, when God identifed us in the cross (the death of Jesus), when we pass from being a child of Adam to being a child of the New Adam (I and the children which my Father has given me - Jesus).

There is no efficacy in water baptism, only the answer of a good heart ftoward God in obeying his commandment to be baptised. Water baptism is a type and shaddow of being buried Christ and raised (resurrected) with him to walk a new life.

Interesting. It seems that not only have you grossly misinterpreted the Scriptures (and it seems, added a few of your own), but that you have made one of the most common logical fallacies out there: Ad hominem.

But anyway, no. Believing in baptism tags me as a Christian. And I was not aware that I like tagging people... but I'm sure you're correct in your evaluation of my character, considering you've read an entirety of 6 posts that I've made on this forum. What else do you need to assess my character?

Let's now address your theological errors. This "new birth" we obtain is when we cast off the old man and put on the new man of God (Romans 6:4-8). That is to say, we hear the teaching of Christ and we believe it, we receive it, and so we naturally decide to live like Christ would have us to live. Therefore we do what He has commanded us to do, to be baptized for the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38) and this baptism, which is not the removal of the filth from the flesh, but the answer of a clear conscience toward God, symbolizes our burial with Christ, and our rising to walk in newness of life with Him (1 Peter 3:21; Colossians 2:12; Romans 6:4). This baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21), because God has decided that it should save us.

I believe a better word to use than "shadow"is "symbol." Water baptism is a symbol of being buried with Christ and raised with him to walk in newness of life, but it is, in fact, through baptism that we are raised from spiritual death.

[Pilgrim_of_the_Dispersion]

And which I understand to mean that Jesus is Savior only of those over whom he is King,

that if he is not your King, shown by his ruling in your heart and life, then he is not your Savior (you are not saved),

because he is Savior only of those over whom he is King.

I do not understand that to mean he must be your King before he can be your Savior, that salvation depends on his kingship, that kingship must precede salvation.

And yet, that's what it says. You are trying to make it too complicated. Don't try to make it say something other than what it says. And also, He is our King AND our Savior at the same point, when we obey Him. We allow Him to rule over us and He saves us because of our obedience. That's what the Scripture says.

Those Scriptures would be:

Jn 10:27-29 - "My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal (everlasting) life, and they shall never perish; no one (including themselves) can snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

You sort of added that yourself. First, just the logical implications of snatching something out of someone's hand means that you must be outside that person's hand. If you are in someone's hand, you cannot snatch yourself out. If you're in God's hand, you walk out. See, you must harmonize these Scriptures with those in the the rest of the word of God, such as Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 and 1 Corinthians 9:27.

Jn 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise him up at the last day. For my Father's will is that eveyone who looks to the Son, and believes in him (true faith, not false faith) shall have eternal life."

We know that God's will is for everyone who believes in Christ would be saved. That doesn't mean it always happens. Now, before you say I'm limiting the power of God, realize that truth of that statement. It is God's will that people sin? Of course not. And yet it happens. Because He gave us the choice. Likewise, it is God's will that no one should perish (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:3,4), but does that happen? Of course not. We know that many will be cast into Hell for their failure to obey God. (Matthew 7:13)

Php 1:6 - ". . .he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (second coming)."

Paul is stating that He is confident that God will do this, but as we can see from the next few verses, God's action depends on the cooperation of the Philippians. Verses 9-10 says, "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ." It is Paul's prayer that they have no offense until the day of Christ. But if it was a statement of absolute fact that God would carry out their good work to completion, and that they would never do anything to ruin that, Paul would be rather inappropriately praying that they not be guilty of an offense. He would basically be saying the God is not able to keep what He has promised. And yet, our obedience is not His promise, it is our promise. Salvation is His promise, if we keep our promise.

Heb 10:14 - ". . .he has made (past tense) perfect forever those who are being made holy (the saved)."

He has made them complete, yes. And yet in the same chapter, the Hebrew writer urges them to "hold fast the confession of [their] hope without wavering..." How could they waver if they did not have the possibility of wavering? He then tells them that if "we (those who are being sanctified) sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins." Apparently they had received the FIRST sacrifice for sins, which made them perfect (Hebrews 10:12-14), but if they sin AFTER receiving this first sacrifice (which made them perfect...), their remains no longer a sacrifice for sins. Clearly they were in a right situation with God, because the Hebrew writer encourages them to hold fast to the confession of their faith without wavering.

Ro 8:38 - ". . .neither death nor life. . .nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us (the saved) from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And that's very true. But just because God loves us does not mean we are saved. Nothing, not even our own horrid sins, can keep our God from loving us. However, if we live a life of sin, we will not be saved. Does God not love all those who have died in sin since the beginning of time?

1Pe 1:3-5 - ". . .he has given us new birth. . .into an inheritance. . .who through faith are shielded by God's power (from falling away) until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time (second coming).

Umm... you substituted the "from falling away" part... Through our faith, we are being guarded by God's power. That's what that Scripture actually says, without my addition of words. If we lose that faith, we will no longer be guarded by God's power.

2Pe 1:10-11 - ". . .make your calling and election sure (to yourself). For if you do these things, you will never fall (from faith), and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom. (If you do not do these things, your calling and election are not sure; i.e., you were never called and elected.)

Your interpretation of that is clearly colored and distorted by your former beliefs. You have sought to create a message from that passage instead of understanding the message that is contained in that passage. It says you will never fall or stumble, if you do these things. It even says that they received a call AND an election, but that they have to make it sure. It does not say that they never were called and elected. Quite the opposite.

Ro 8:28 - ". . .in all things God works for (accomplishes) the good of those. . .who have been called according to his purpose (salvation)." That excludes falling from faith.

I almost don't understand what you're trying to say from this passage. But I understand that you're missing the condition presented in this verse. "All things work together for the good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." If you love God, all things will work together for your good. If you stop loving God (stop doing His commandments - John 14:15), then that promise is gone.

Eph 1:4-5 - ". . .he chose us. . .to be holy and blameless. . .to be adopted as his sons."

Yep. And yet, we have been given the choice to go against God's will.

Your view of regeneration allows that once having been redeemed from the rebel camp of Satan, and adopted into God's family as sons,

we can then be snatched from God's hand (contrary to Jn 10:27-29). That makes God too small.

As I said in response to your interpretation of John 10:27-29, we are not snatched out of God's hand if we ourselves choose to leave His hand. Also, I am not making God small by recognizing His choice to give us the ability to make our own decisions.

Consider what regeneration really is:

Regeneration is raising from spiritual death (Col 2:13; Eph 2:1, 5) and the old nature (Eph 2:3),

into eternal life (God's life--2Pe 1:4; 1Jn 3:9; Jn 14:17), and a new nature/self (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10),

which makes us new creatures (2Co 5:17), like the transformation process of a caterpillar into a butterfly (Ro 12:2; cf Mt 7:2; Mk 9:2).

Which is accomplished by baptism. (Romans 6:4)

To "lose salvation" is to be snatched from the Father's hand, to reverse all that mighty work of God, and to reverse the transformation process, like going back into a caterpillar.

That is imposible in the natural order, and it is impossible in the spiritual order, of which the natural order is a copy,

as the natural order is a copy of the spiritual order in conception and birth, where we have no choice in the matter (Jn 1:13), and are completely acted upon.

I am going to dismiss your analogy to the caterpillar, since it is a false and illogical analogy, considering that the Bible teaches that we are able to fall away from salvation. This is not so much a reverse of the process of salvation as a ceasing of the process of salvation.

To "lose salvation" is to no longer be saved. We lose our salvation not from being "snatched" from the Father's hand, because we cannot be snatched from the Father's hand, because in order to be snatched from the Father's hand, someone else must be snatching us, and not ourselves (look back to my explanation of John 10). We lose our salvation by once having it but rejecting it, and deciding that we would rather live according to our fleshly desires, and not according to the desires of God.

In addition to those above, there is the one of

Lk 8:13-15, where the word is received with joy when they hear it, but they have no root (regeneration).

They believe for a while (false faith), but in the time of testing they fall away (because they have no root, they are not reborn).

They were in the kingdom for a while, but they were not of the kingdom.

You, not the Scriptures, identify that "root" as regeneration. Their root would be a well-founded faith, as opposed to a weak and poorly founded faith. It does not say they are not reborn, or that they had false faith, but simply weak, unfounded faith that was not strong enough to endure persecution.

Regarding the ones above:

In the parables in Mt 13 on the nature of the kingdom, those in 13:24-30 are weeds in the kingdom (v.25, 41), but not of the kingdom (v.30, 41).

Likewise, those in 13:47-50 are bad fish in the net (kingdom), who are in the kingdom (net-v.47), but not of the kingdom (vv.48-49).

The two (the good and the bad) are separated by their works. These parables mention those who practice lawlessness, and are therefore neither in nor of His kingdom. I agree that many of them profess the faith as false teachers, but those who were cast into Hell were cast into it because they practiced lawlessness. It does not say they were never "reborn" or that they were even reborn in the first place. The point is that they did not do as God willed. If they ever had salvation at one point (which is not specified nor ruled out in this passage, and therefore we cannot judge), they lost it by practicing iniquity. There is not the distinction between being reborn or not reborn.

In Jn 8:31-47, those who believed in Jesus (v.31) did not hold to his teaching (v.31-33), they were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom (v.44, 47).

As in the parable of the weeds (Mt 13:25), they also belonged to the enemy (Jn 8:44), not to the kingdom.

In the parable of the weeds, it does not say that the weeds believed.

In Jn 15:1, Jesus is the vine (kingdom) where the Father cuts off the branches that bear no fruit. Those branches are in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

They are not in the kingdom, nor of the kingdom, when they are not bearing fruit. When they do not bear fruit, they are cut off and cast out of the kingdom, into outer darkness.

In Gal 5:4, they have fallen away from grace; i.e., they have gone to law-keeping. Those who continued in law-keeping after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom abandoned law-keeping.

They were probably among those who were in the kingdom, but they were not themselves in the kingdom. Because when you're in the kingdom, you have salvation. But they fell from grace. They fell from their salvation, since they once had it.

Heb 6:4-6, 10:29 is the same kind of situation. Those who returned to Judaism after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom did not return to Judaism.

The phrase "in the kingdom but not of the kingom" is not specifically stated, but it is specifically illustrated,

like the "sovereignty of God" is not specifically stated, but it is specifically illustrated.

It appears that was is specifically illustrated in the scriptures is that you can be cast out of the kingdom of God, or that you can profess to be in the kingdom of God, which does not mean that you are in the kingdom of God. If does not illustrate a difference between being in the kingdom of heaven, or of the kingdom of heaven. In fact, 1 Thessalonians 2:12 says that God calls us into His own kingdom and glory. Being in God's kingdom is the same as being of the kingdom. Considering that those who are in God's kingdom are ruled by Him, then those who are not ruled by Him would not be in His kingdom.

It seems that a major root of your incorrectness stems from your misinterpretation of John 1:13. Much of your theology spawns from this idea of being reborn before ever believing, and that this rebirth is something of which we have no control. Well, let's examine John 1:13, including the previous two verses, which are very important to understanding the idea.

"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

It seems that you center upon the end of this verse as though saying that we are not born of God according to our own will, but according to God's will. And that is true in one sense, but not true in another. We are born of God according to His will, but based on our own choice to be born of God.

I think it's the order of the words that confuses you. This is what the passage says:

- To those that receive Him, to those who believe on His name--who, because of their belief, become born of God, not of blood, or of the will of flesh, or of the will of man--, they are given the right to become children of God.

It does NOT say:

- Those that receive Him did so because they were previously born of God, and that is why they were able to have belief on Him. Therefore, since He made them to be born again, they received Him.

It does not say that for a couple of reasons. First, because it is saying that reception and belief came before birth of God. Second, because if it said that reception came after being born again, then those who did not receive Him only did not receive Him because He did not force them or cause them to be reborn. Basically, you're saying that God arbitrarily decided to cause some to be reborn, and others to not be reborn, instead of deciding this based upon their actions and upon their prior belief, and that He arbitrarily decided that others should not be reborn, and that they would have no ability or choice in and of themselves to believe or receive Him. Basically, GOD is prevented them from receiving Him. That doctrine clashes directly with the nature of God, which is stated in 1 Timothy 2:3,4 and 2 Peter 3:9, which says that God does not want anyone to perish.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Pilgrim_of_the_Dispersion