Why December 25 is Christmas

[goldust59]

Neb, go to goggle and do a search on Zeitgeist and watch the first hour of that video....... I personally know many many people who have bought into that video and will never ever accept the gospel, and it's largely due to the non Biblical things that Christianity at large has accepted as OK concerning the Birth of Christ and the things that are done to celebrate Christmas.

Ah, so it is our fault. Some conspiracy kook make a video perverting the meaning and histoy of Christmas and fabricating and revising mythology in order to assign false values to Christmas and because people are led astray from that video, it is our fault they are led astray because we celebrate Christmas???? Do you not see how ridiculous that is???

It will cost the souls of people I know personally....... so it's not as simple a thing as looking into the Bible and showing you that the bible says not to do something.

But that is the result of video, not result of our celebration of Christmas. You are blaming the wrong thing.

I do remember somewhere God telling the Israelites not to copy the things they saw the people in the lands he was sending them into for he did not want to be worshiped that way...... and when you say to people that a Christmas tree reminds you of Jesus, that really is what you're doing; you will be letting compare what you say and do to what the pagans did/do to Nimrod..

The problem is that the Chrstmas tree is only 700 years old and the tradition began in Christian Europe. We aren't copying the pagans, as the pagans did not invent the tradition of the Christmas tree. The Christmas Tree orginiated with Christians; it's a purely Christian tradition.

As for not posting those places where the Nimrod story comes from, it's kind of hard to do with all the totally vial stuff that is only one click away from most of those sites........ that's why Chuck, Tom and David don't put the stuff up front on their sites as well, but just tell you about what it is.

I see and since they put it on their webiste is MUST be true, because we all know that once it goes on a website it's true...

When these two threads started I really didn't have a problem with you guys having Christmas, but I've received a couple of emails from old work friends trying to sell me on that video and wondering how in the world I could have let myself get involved in all that copycat Christian stuff.....

So just how serious is it that three of my old work friends might go to hell over how you guys celebrate Christmas if I can't convince them that you guys are wrong that that video has no value for the pagan things it refers to have nothing to do with Christ. You see Neb, I have no doubt that you will not be affected by having your Christmas..... but how will it affect the knowledge and decisions of others.

And how responsible are we when we affect others view of the gospel in a negative way.

It's not as simple as looking at a verse and telling you that the Bible says not to do that...... it's as simple as I now know that unless something changes, several of my personal long term acquaintances may actually go to hell over the way I/we have celebrated christmas.

That is simply wrong. People don't go to hell over our celebration of Christmas. Your friends are simply believing what they saw in a video (a very poorly made conspiracy theory-type video) and THAT is where the problem lies. The video is wrong and it is what has led your friends astray. Your firends are evidently not in the habit of checking the sources or the information. They are simply taking what they heard and saw and are running with it without first checking to see if the information is accurate and truthful.

In truth, the problem is that the video gave them an excuse to reject Christ. The video is an enabler for what they had already done in their heart. The video makes a bunch of baseless, historically erroneous claims, but they are willing to swallow it all hook, line and sinker, because they rejected Christ any way. Now they have something to throw out to justify their unbelief.

So you have said Shiloh...... but I read in many many places and in many many books that people involved evergreen trees into their pagan belief systems, and December 25th is tied into their time of year to worship the sun. The Bible does not give us any direction on celebrating the Birth of Christ in December and why you think it's OK to use the very dates for pagan worship to celebrate Christ's birthday when we've not even been instructed to do so is beyond me.

The world is going to hell in a hand basket, and the church is so powerless that most can't even keep demons out of their midst.... and you guys seem to think that celebrating the birth of our Lord on existing pagan holidays that we know is nowhere close to his birthday.... I just sit back and wonder at how many times you all have told folks on this board that you don't accept things because they are not in the Word and then take all this stuff in as great..... I have to just sit back and shake my head in wonder. as to how you do it.

but as I'm off for a few days I guess I'll just have to ponder about it......

You guys enjoy your day...... and if you get the chance ask Jesus if he's happy about you buying gifts for everyone but him, and don't forget to make a fuss over that tree. When you light your yule time log, as Him if he like the flames and how the smoke rises up the chemney.... but especially ask him if he minds celebrating his birthday on someone Else's special day.... Do some serious praying about it and see what answers you get.

***shakes head and walks away toward a family gathering*****

[oldzimm]

Could Christmas be falling on a pagan holiday, I don't know, it could or it could not and it don't really matter. I with most fellow Christians are celebrating the birth of Jesus on the 25th of December and that's what matters.

I don't think it would really matter to Jesus either, Dec. 25th is one day out of 365 days, days are units of time and Jesus is outside of time. So time is a worldly unit of measure.

Mankind has been on this earth for thousands of years, there are only 365 days a year, so what ever day that is picked by the World Christian community to celebrate the birth of Jesus, chances are it would probably fall on some sorta pagan event.

So here we are, we don't want to offend any pagan people by celebrating the birth of Jesus on what could be the day they celebrate something else for whatever reason. I mean Jesus is the only one who can lead a pagan on the path to salvation, oh we don't want to offend them for our projecting the blessing God has given us.(I guess that's not Christian like)

[nebula]

Other One -

I have to follow suit with OneLight - how is chopping down an evergreen tree, setting it up in the living room, and decorating it with pretty things an act of worship?

How is the tree being worshiped?

How is worship to anything being performed?

What makes it something more than mere decoration?

Neb, go to goggle and do a search on Zeitgeist and watch the first hour of that video.......

I'm sorry, but I don't have an hour to watch any videos.

And this doesn't answer the question I gave.

Either setting up Christmas trees is worship or it isn't. Which is it?

And as far as I'm concerned, it's OK if your argument isn't about how we regard the trees now, but what the rituals were about.

I personally know many many people who have bought into that video and will never ever accept the gospel, and it's largely due to the non Biblical things that Christianity at large has accepted as OK concerning the Birth of Christ and the things that are done to celebrate Christmas....

On the flip side, I know of a pastor and his wife who stopped celebrating Christmas, and people started thinking they were Jehovah's Witnesses or something, and that hurt their witness.

My personal opinion on the matter is that when it comes to the behavior of Christians that turn people off from Jesus, celebrating Christmas is most likely a lesser issue than Christians watching rated R movies, cussing, gossiping, griping all the time, not tipping waitresses on Sunday after church, envying, being dishonest, being greedy, acting arrogant, etc.

[OneLight]

I can never understand these arguments. When I was a child, I was taught that Christmas was the celebration of the birth of Christ and Santa was His helper. Yes, it was a lie, but I can assure everyone that I was not sat down and informed that it was a pagan holiday. It wasn't until I came to a Christan site that I first heard all this negativity about Christmas. Strange as this sounds, the ones who should celebrate His birth every day were the ones complaining about celebrating one day. Is there anyone here that was taught it was a pagan holiday when they first celebrated Christmas? Was it in your heart on Christmas to celebrate and idolize a tree? What I felt as a child was love for everyone because of the baby Jesus.

done here ...

[Peri]

Okay... Let me see if I have this right...

We're not allowed to worship Jesus/God on any day that has ever been used for pagan celebrations/purposes. Are there really any days left then? Pagans are pagans everyday, not just on Christmas. There isn't any day that Christians can celebrate on that some pagan somewhere isn't doing something pagan.

And the Christmas trees... So are we supposed to just set all of the trees in the world on fire? I assume that since it's bad to have them indoors, it's equally as bad to have them outdoors. More people see trees when they're outdoors. (And aren't there laws against setting forest fires?) And, out of curiosity, what do all you tree haters do when you go outside? I don't know about where you live, but it's pretty woodsy here. I'd have wear a blindfold to avoid seeing trees, and methinks it would be dangerous to drive blindfolded. It's kind of difficult to avoid looking at trees when God put them everywhere and made them so hardy.

Oh, and what about other things that have been used for pagan purposes. I have this friend who was into Wicca for awhile (she got out of it, thankfully!) and she used all sorts of everyday objects in her rituals. Especially candles. Does that mean that it's wrong for me to own candles? Should I trash everything in my home that anyone has ever used for pagan worship in the whole entire history of the world??

Objects themselves are NOT spiritual beings. I'm shocked to even see that idea on a Christian board, because it's one that you see in pagan cultures. A tree or a candle is not innately evil. We mustn't forget that God is the author of creation and that His creation is good. The creation itself doesn't become evil because someone chooses to use it for evil or to worship the creation rather than the Creator. An apple would be an example of this. In "Snow White," the Evil Queen tries to poison Snow White with an apple. So, using the some "logic" as with the Christmas tree idea, this would mean that Christians could never eat apples since a pagan fairy tale presents apples as this magical, evil thing. Perhaps if the Christmas tree haters stop eating apples, I'll give their ideas a bit more thought. (Okay, maybe not...)

I'll admit that many Christians (that I know, anyway) are much too focused on secular things on Christmas (and every other day of the year), but I don't see how that makes it taboo for me to worship Jesus on that day. Wouldn't that be modelling me life after the lukewarm Christians and the pagans? Why should I be anti-worship just because everyone else is?

[Peri]

Oh, and for the record: Saint Nicholas Day is December 6, not December 25. So if you're going to ban a day because of the Santa myth, December 6 should probably be the day that's actually banned. December 6 is the day that my family celebrated Saint Nicholas/Santa anyway. Christmas was kept completely separate. Should I burn the wooden shoes that my grandfather carved?

[mizzdy]

Okay... Let me see if I have this right...

We're not allowed to worship Jesus/God on any day that has ever been used for pagan celebrations/purposes. Are there really any days left then? Pagans are pagans everyday, not just on Christmas. There isn't any day that Christians can celebrate on that some pagan somewhere isn't doing something pagan.

There are 7 annual set apart days that God calls His own, why not keep them? The only people in the world that keep these days are those who still see the word 'everlasting and forever' as just that, forever and everlasting, and the our Jewish brethren who have yet to see Him as their Messiah.

shalom,

Mizz

[mizzdy]

Are we not to do what Yeshua did? are we not to follow those things that He did, are we not to immulate our Creator and Savior?

In terms of character, yes. In terms of how He modeled the ways in which we deal with temptation, unforgiveness, patience, prayer, faithfulness, and dedication and surrender to the Will of the Father, yes.

Are we expected to emulate Him in terms of first century Hebrew culture? No. There is nothing wrong with living that way if you choose to do so, but there is NO NT expecation, commandment given either explicitly or imiplicity that we are to do so.

I hear all the time how people want to get back to that first century model, and that comes from most of the mainstream christians I know but no one wants to do the things that they did. The command was to follow Him in all His ways, not just within the realm of forgiveness, and all that which if we follow after Him and do the things He did that would be imparted by the Spirit in order for us to do those things.

Yes. We differ because I operate from the Bible's definition. I don't subscribe to the theological gymnastics of the Two-House sect.

When are you please going to stop labeling me a two house separtionist? All who come to Him are His, God calls His first born, the title not the physical, Israel and all who come to faith in Him is His, plain simple, not gentile church, not one group here or one there, not two ways of salvation but one, Him. We differ because you look at things differently than I do. I see the passage in Jeremiah as literal, Judah and his companions, Israel and his companions all grafted into one body. So please leave off the cute little 'theological gymnastics'. I am sorry to say you do not hold all the answers either, not one of us does and no amount of college or learning does give us the whole council or Word of God.

Well then, you should get out more. Most Christians know and have known for a long time that Dec. 25th is not Jesus' real birthday. Messianics think they have some breaking news on that issue but I can point to Christian publications going back to as earlly as the 19th century that acknowledge the fact that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th. In fact most people know that many of our traditions are just that: They are traditions and not historically accurate all points. The point of the traditions is not to reflect exacting historical precision, but to honor the fact of His birth.

Well shoot I would really love to get out of the house more but due to my disablities its really hard to get anywhere by myself but thanks for your concern. Really? most christians know this? I know some mainstream christians who think it might not be but feel its perfectly ok to put His name on a day that He never did. And well I know facebook is a bit bunch of problems but I do belong to several closed groups there more than a few mainstream ones and they almost universally believe christmas is His bday. Why do we pick a day to honor Him that God did not give us but that He did give us other days to keep that do honor Him? As I said before I dont have a problem with people doing as they wish, and whatever we do we should do for Him only I just cant understand why people dont want to do the things that He set aside for us, for Him, to show His plan of reconciliation, restoration and salvation? No instead we need to make up new days and put our humanistic stamp on them. And that goes for some who do so for His moedim also. At least the ones I know who keep Hanukkah, Purim are not calling them God ordained and set His name on them when He did not. See I see that its all about His authority not mans to do as they wish. Just me though and no one has to agree with that.

The problem here is that you are being a bit over dramatic. Christmas is a tradition. No one has put God's Name on it. I think you overstating what is being done.

Oh, its not Jesus is the reason for the season? or God ordained His birth on this day? or any of the other hundreds of things man puts on this day? Tradition is one thing but authority is another, you may not put His name on the day but I know hundreds who do and speak to me daily on the matter at this time every single year. We have churches preaching the very thing, Gods Son was born on this day, its holy, set apart, given to us to worship His birth, a load of it goes on each year so maybe you should get out more.

So if it is wrong to keep Christmas because it is not ordained by God, why was it okay for Jesus to keep the Feast of Dedication, whiich was also not ordatined of God? Why was it okay for Jesus to use the Amidah as a model prayer for his disciples when that prayer was not ordained by God? I mean shouldn't the principle be consistent?

First off I do not think the Messiah while on Solomons porch was observing the same traditions Rabbinical Judaism does today. Wrong no not at all it was a miracle that godly men and woman stood up to the oppression, took a stand for His Word, the Shoah is a memorial to the dead and living who were persecuted for their faith, each time we see these things in all their forms we should stand and recognize the work of the Spirit in mens hearts. So in the same vein as your thinking should we observe christmas even though we have no model, words, or anything that shows Messiah kept His day? God ordains His days for reasons we really are not keeping those days as He did nor can we, I see them as rehearsals until He comes again and we keep them with Him. I do believe that Yeshua being God in the flesh will do all things that He had ordained, prayers well if we are not saying the Lords prayer correctly are we somehow failing in our attempts to prayer to Him for not reciting things perfectly. No not at all, we are guided by the Spirit and He teaches us to prayer in the manner that is pleasing to Him. Do you suppose the Spirit leads people to keep christmas? and if so wouldn't He teach us to do away with all the trappings involved and get down to basics instead of all the trees and presents?

To me God is consistent, He outlines for us how to behave, how to interact with one another, He gives us cycles of days that point to the salvation only Yeshua and His blood brings. From Genesis to Revelation God is consistent He gives us the same message over and over, believe, have faith, obey and He will come again to bring us everlasting life. He is consistent in His Torah, in His moedim, God is the same from the beginning to everlasting. He didn't change His days nor His Torah it is mans corruption not His. As we strive to obey He is brings us into His covenant we need to learn to walk that out and that is why He sent His Spirit to help us to just that. So I see He is consistent and man is not unless you count the fact that man has tried his best to change Gods words and His ways to suit themselves. You dont have to agree with me at all Shiloh but I would ask you to please stop with the two house nonsense, with all the other nonsense also.

shalom,

Mizz

[He giveth more grace]

Verse 6: But this thou hast (in thy favour), that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes which I (Christ) ALSO HATE.

Verse 15: So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes (the followers of St.Nicholas - Santa Claus), which thing I (Christ) HATE.

Nonsense, the word Nicolaitanes mean "against laity". I don't believe St. Nicholas was around at the time this church epistles was written.

[Littlelambseativy]

I read a most interesting article in Prophecy in the News and though Christ may have been born sometime in September? the Magoi who found Christ in a home would most likely have arrive about December 25 with their gifts. And, there would most certainly not have been the traditional 3 Magoi, who were very wealthy priests and knew the prophecy because of what they learned from the history of Daniel, but there would have been perhaps a retinue of hundreds with their military accompaniment guarding the gold, frankincense and myrrh. They were astrologers and knew the meaning of the birth of a Jewish king.Herod would then have most certainly been concerned that they and the child and their knowledge were a threat to him and his leadership and thus wanted the baby King killed and not being certain of what time the star first appeared hedged his bet by killing all males under the age of 2. A most interesting article - it also says that being Arabs they most certainly did not come on camels but on the horse - precursor of the current Arabian horse.