Why December 25 is Christmas

[mizzdy]

Hey at least it started the day before christmas this year. As someone who does not observe christmas, who does see the progression from keeping the biblical feasts into something not given by Him, I think if people want to keep christmas they should do so if that is what they want. At the end of the day we must ask ourselves a few questions, did God ordain it, did Yeshua tell us to keep it, if its not biblical should we keep it? Its not ordain in scriptures, its not spoken of by our Messiah nor did the apostles set forth any new celebration, and since its no to those questions we can definately say its not biblical. Do we keep the these things because they are just tradtions? To me I think it would be pretty clear in the bible when Yeshua's bday was, when it was celebrated, I mean if He can make sure His set apart days are still kept nearly 6thousand years later He would manage to keep His Sons day right up there with them, but its not there. Since its not clear, not even mentioned the day why do we take the things of men and put His name on it?

Otherone, Messiah was taken to the temple on the 8th day for circumcison, Mary after she went through her purification was to bring an offering for the birth of a child.

Leviticus 12 1-5

The Ritual After Childbirth

1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled.

5 ‘But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.

After this time she would have gone to the temple or even the synagogue where she lived and given this offering. Many take the scriptures about this and take a different time line for His birth.

shalom,

Mizz

[Watchman Neo]

And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”

And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:

“ Glory to God in the highest,

And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!”

I haven't read this entire thread; however, I am extremely thankful that our Father's plan is in place. As to the exact date, or when we celebrate the birth of Christ...that is an all-year deal for me!

blessings,

Watchman Neo

[OneLight]

Nicolaitan means "a follower of Nicolas", a.k.a "St. Nick". ANYONE following the pagan Yuletide ritual is therefore a nicolaitan.

I like to stay out of threads like this as much as I can, but when I find something I don't understand, I like to question it so I may have a better understanding.

You say that the Nicolaitans were followers of "St Nick". According to what I have found, St Nick was not born until around 270 AD. How could the bible be referring to this person who had not been born yet?

Edited to reform my question ... how is it that the Nicolaitans are following a man who has not been born? This does not make since at all.

[Massorite]

To be sure, there is only ONE Sun of Righteousness.

Malachi 4:2

“But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture.

Footnotes:

I think you got the word "sun" spelled wrong. It should be Son as in SON OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT SUN (S-U-N) AS IN THE PLANET.

[Massorite]

Nicolaitan means "a follower of Nicolas", a.k.a "St. Nick". ANYONE following the pagan Yuletide ritual is therefore a nicolaitan.

I like to stay out of threads like this as much as I can, but when I find something I don't understand, I like to question it so I may have a better understanding.

You say that the Nicolaitans were followers of "St Nick". According to what I have found, St Nick was not born until around 270 AD. How could the bible be referring to this person who had not been born yet?

Edited to reform my question ... how is it that the Nicolaitans are following a man who has not been born? This does not make since at all.

You got it onelight. The Nicolaitans were a group of folks who thought that they were in position of some sort of altra secret info about Christ/God and considered themeselves above everyone else. I believe that the Nicolaitans were the very first mention of the Universal Chuch in its infentcy.

[Floatingaxe]

To be sure, there is only ONE Sun of Righteousness.

Malachi 4:2

“But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture.

Footnotes:

I think you got the word "sun" spelled wrong. It should be Son as in SON OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT SUN (S-U-N) AS IN THE PLANET.

It is SUN. Look it up.

Since the beginning of Christianity, Christians, such as Justin Martyr to today, have regarded the "Sun of Righteousness" as a reference to Jesus.

In many scriptures, God is related to a planet or star (Psalm 84:11, Isaiah 60:19, Revelation 22:16, Numbers 24:17). Here, the Messiah is not only a Sun, but also the Sun of Righteousness who brings healing---healing in His wings, which is a reference to the tassels of His tzittzit, called 'wings'.

Jesus is the light of the world. He is our righteousness, not the son of righteousness.

Jeremiah 23:6

And this will be his name: ‘The Lord Is Our Righteousness.’ In that day Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety.

Jeremiah 33:16

In that day Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this will be its name: ‘The Lord Is Our Righteousness.’

[Guest shiloh357]

the point of the article is that the story of Nimrod, Gilgamesh, Orisis is the same story as told by different cultures. The mixing of the names is just to bring the stories all together as a single happening with different names.

And there are many people who agree.. Chuck Missler, Tom Horn, David Wilkerson to name three and there is an interesting article in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

I could fill pages of recent research that most likely would be simply fluffed off, so I won't bother.

Yeah, everybody knows that the ancient pagan cultures borrowed from each other. They even adopted and incorporated new gods from other cultures. The Romans and thousands and thousands of gods.

That is not the issue. The issue is about whether or not the story of Jesus is just another retelling of same pagan myths. Wilkerson, Missler and Horn are not "scholars." The OP article was based on REAL scholarshhip and simply points out that despite what revisionists claim, December 25th was not chosen as the birth of Jesus out of any motivation to worship Jesus according to pagan traditions.

You cited a lot of historically and factually incorrect information and I am familiar enough with this issue to point out the flaws in what you cited. The whole pagan "copy cat" Jesus claims are just another area of false claims that Christian apologetics has to address.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hey at least it started the day before christmas this year. As someone who does not observe christmas, who does see the progression from keeping the biblical feasts into something not given by Him, I think if people want to keep christmas they should do so if that is what they want. At the end of the day we must ask ourselves a few questions, did God ordain it, did Yeshua tell us to keep it, if its not biblical should we keep it? Its not ordain in scriptures, its not spoken of by our Messiah nor did the apostles set forth any new celebration, and since its no to those questions we can definately say its not biblical. Do we keep the these things because they are just tradtions? To me I think it would be pretty clear in the bible when Yeshua's bday was, when it was celebrated, I mean if He can make sure His set apart days are still kept nearly 6thousand years later He would manage to keep His Sons day right up there with them, but its not there. Since its not clear, not even mentioned the day why do we take the things of men and put His name on it?

It is not commanded, but that doesn't really serve as an argument agaisnt celebrating Christmas, even on Dec. 25. The problem is that it is not commanded agasint either. It is does not violate any established doctrines or explicit teachings of Scripture.

Christmas is a more modern tradition that has evolved over time. Were you to go back to its origins in Europe, it would look entirely different than it does now in 21st Century America/Europe.

Should the Jewish people not celbrate Purim because it is not commanded in the Bible? There is no commandment to celebrate Rosh Hashanna either. Should those festivals be abandoned? The Feast of Dedication (Chaunkah) is not commanded either. Yet Jesus commemorated it. While you're at it, Bar Mitzvah's did not exist in Bible times. Neither does Yom Ha Shoah, Simcha Torah, Shemini Azteret, the fast of Tish B'Av, or the holiday of Tu B'Shevat.

In order to be internally consistent, you will have argue that those Jewish holidays should be abandoned by Messianic and traditional Jews alike since we do not find them explicity or implicitly commanded anywhere in the Bible.

The point is that it is not wrong to establish our own traditions and use those traditions to remember a biblical event like Christmas. There is no prohibition against traditions in the Bible. The problem is when traditions are allowed to supercede the Bible. Even then, the problem isn't the tradition istself. The problem lies in the heart of the person observing it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Cobalt is correct. December 25 was not chosen to celebrated just one pagan holiday and not even the holiday of Sol Invectus. But the date of December 25 was chosen by the Roman Emperor Aurelian in 274 AD.

The last part of December is the darkest time of the year and the time of the winter solstice, in Rome on December 25, a date chosen by Emperor Aurelian in AD 274, to celebrate pagan celebrations because He wanted to compress both celebrations into one. One was the celebration of the birth of Mithras, the Iranian sun god named “Sun of Righteousness” and was a favorite of the Roman soldiers and the other celebration was the birth of the “ Unconquered Sun” and a few days earlier the celebration of the winter solstice. Also, by early December the farmer would have been finished with his autumn planting which would give way for the grandest pagan festival of the whole year. All of Rome would take part in the celebration of Saturnalia, and it was celebrated between December 17th and December 23rd to honor the Roman god named Saturn, who was the god of agriculture. Saturnalia was designated a holy day on which sacrifices and rituals were performed. The temple of Saturn was the oldest temple recorded by the Roman church and had been dedicated during the Saturnalia, when the bonds which fettered the feet of the statue of the pagan god were loosed to symbolize the liberation of the god. After the sacrifice at the temple, there would be a public banquet where the image of the god would be placed in attendance as if he were a guest. The festival was a time when social restrictions were relaxed, public gambling was allowed, less formal dinner cloths were permitted and slaves were treated as equals. They were permitted to use the dice, wear their Masters cloths and were waited on at meal time. During that week no business was allowed, the serious were barred from the festival, and there was unlimited drinking, games, singing naked, sexual perversions and other debauchery and it was a time to visit friends and give gifts.

The Roman church in seeing that the pagans had so much reverence for these pagan holy days and exalted deities during these celebrations, seized upon the peoples reverence for their gods and the date of December 25 to introduce a new reason for the season, a new holy day and called it Christ Mass. This is how and when the church compromised its integrity and pagan ritual began to infiltrate into the church and the worship of Christ. The more the church expanded in size and compromises the more pagan ritual it picked up along the way. Just as the Roman soldiers would bring back to Rome the pagan gods, worship and rituals from the nations they had conquered, so did the church pick up pagan ritual as it expanded. Every single custom, tradition and practice that is observed during the Christmas holiday, has its origins in paganism which dates back long before the birth of our Lord and Savior.

These are true historical facts and proof that Christians have been deceived into performing pagan practises in the name of Christ by the Universal Church since about 300 AD. BUT PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. LOOK IT UP FOR YOUR SELF AND SEE IF WHAT I SAY IS TRUE OR NOT.

All meaningless unless you can display worship of something other than Christ. Can you? Can you show that people are worshiping a tree? Can you demonstrate that people are praying to it? Can you illustrate how people, namely Christians who celebrate Christmas, give a Christmas tree the attributes or powers of a god? Because for it to be this monstrous pagan 'thing,' you have to be able to show worship of it. Because, after all, it is a stupid tree that you people seem to have such a problem with. You don't have a problem with house plants, or a pear tree in the front yard, but a decorated tree which is no different from any other nick nack people keep in their houses becomes this hideous and pagan thing that is going to rob us of our salvation, which you yourself have said about Christmas in years past. The whole premise is rubbish.

I personally would like to see archeological evidence that ancient peoples had anything like the modern Christmas trees. I would like for the anti-Christmas crowd provide objective historical evidence from pagan cultures giving instructions specifically on how to decorate such trees I would like to see the evidence from Babylonian, Chaldean, Assyrian, Egyptian, Greek and Roman sources.

[other one]

the point of the article is that the story of Nimrod, Gilgamesh, Orisis is the same story as told by different cultures. The mixing of the names is just to bring the stories all together as a single happening with different names.

And there are many people who agree.. Chuck Missler, Tom Horn, David Wilkerson to name three and there is an interesting article in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

I could fill pages of recent research that most likely would be simply fluffed off, so I won't bother.

Yeah, everybody knows that the ancient pagan cultures borrowed from each other. They even adopted and incorporated new gods from other cultures. The Romans and thousands and thousands of gods.

That is not the issue. The issue is about whether or not the story of Jesus is just another retelling of same pagan myths. Wilkerson, Missler and Horn are not "scholars." The OP article was based on REAL scholarshhip and simply points out that despite what revisionists claim, December 25th was not chosen as the birth of Jesus out of any motivation to worship Jesus according to pagan traditions.

You cited a lot of historically and factually incorrect information and I am familiar enough with this issue to point out the flaws in what you cited. The whole pagan "copy cat" Jesus claims are just another area of false claims that Christian apologetics has to address.

Who said anything about the story of Jesus being like these stories.

So you are saying that the OP is based on real scholarship and the book of Luke is what?????

You're saying that Chuck, Tom and David are not qualified scholars...... good grief... You are saying that you know more than

Chuck Mussler, Tom Horn and David Wilkerson and the others I quoted....... my oh my.