Can Women Lead The Flock?

[Floatingaxe]

Women pastoring is not about giving due respect to their husbands.

It's about the order established by God at creation that women are not to have a position of spiritual authority over men (1Ti 2:12),

as does a pastor/teacher (1Ti 2:12).

You assume that chronological order in Creation has something to do with rank in the Body of Christ. There isn't any such thing.

[~candice~]

I believe Eleanor is pointing to a very solid concept. Paul's reasoning was not because of local issues. Paul pointed to a concept that was cross-culture. He had a solid theological reason for prohibiting women from teaching that went far beyond local issues in a single congregation. I do believe Paul's qualifying reason still applies today, we are never told that it doesn't.

[AnotherSinner]

to

In no way does the manner in which we interact with each other as marriage partners have anything to do with our fulfilling God's calling on our lives in the Body of Christ!

Oh yes it does. Ephesians 5 spells it out very clearly.

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Our marriages should reflect Christ love for us to the world. Everything we do should reflect as a testimony for Him. If we as husbands or wives not do what is listed below, how are we suppose to love our enemies.

All things, when completed according to scripture are to point toward Christ. He is the beginning and the end. ALL things were made by Him and for Him.

My giving my husband due respect as scripture instructs me has no bearing on my position should I take on a pastoring position in my church...which I have done in the past.

Women pastoring is not about giving due respect to their husbands.

It's about the order established by God at creation that women are not to have a position of spiritual authority over men (1Ti 2:12-14),

as does a pastor/teacher.

You assume that chronological order in Creation has something to do with rank in the Body of Christ. There isn't any such thing.

I don't assume anything.

I believe in the authority of Paul, given to him by special call from Jesus (Ac 9:15),

to be the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20) as an apostle (Ro 1:1; 1Co 1:1; 2Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1Ti; 2Ti 1:1; Tit)

with apostolic authority,

and in the revelation given to him by Jesus (Gal 1:11-12; 1Co 12:1-4, 7; Eph 3:2-3), which the NT Word of God states:

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (1Ti 1:12), because of the permanent order established by God at creation (1Ti 2:13), and because of her deception (1Ti 2:14).

I choose to believe and obey the Word of God which abides forever.

Agree and scripture makes that clear. Just have to pray that those who do not see that come to in time. This verse has been quoted over and over....and it is just not sinking in.

[Floatingaxe]

I don't assume anything.

I believe in the authority of Paul, given to him by special call from Jesus (Ac 9:15),

to be the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20) as an apostle (Ro 1:1; 1Co 1:1; 2Co 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1Ti; 2Ti 1:1; Tit)

with apostolic authority,

and in the revelation given to him by Jesus (Gal 1:11-12; 1Co 12:1-4, 7; Eph 3:2-3), which the NT Word of God states:

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (1Ti 1:12), because of the permanent order established by God at creation (1Ti 2:13), and because of her deception (1Ti 2:14).

I choose to believe and obey the Word of God which abides forever.

There are scholars of the word of God who say that Paul is saying he doesn't permit one particular woman to teach or have authority. The order of creation has nothing to do with it. This is not a matter of chronology.

First off, the popular interpretation is that women are not to teach men or exercise authority over (and that could mean anything) because the woman was created second and she was deceived by the serpent into disobedience (whereas the man willfully disobeyed God).

The problems with that are:

1. Nowhere does Scripture give any earthly principle to being born or created first or second. There is no such principle. Spiritual principles do not have on and off switches where we can use them here but not there. If such a principle existed it would have to have been clearly STATED in Scripture and have an undisputed, fixed theme in everything, and then we would all be worshipping and looking to for leadership, the sun, the water, the fish (maybe dolphins and whales!) There was a purpose for the woman being created second, and that wasn't it. The reason can be gleaned clearly in Genesis 2.

2. The idea that being deceived directly by the serpent rather than deceiving oneself into willful disobedience is somehow more wicked, or that deceiving oneself and willful disobedience qualifies one for leadership more---are just nutsy ideas that have no base in logic and are not stated anywhere else in the entire Scriptures by God or any servant of God.

3. The logistics of Paul just discovering a principle set into motion at creation 4000 years earlier and NEVER mentioned once by God, and which supposed principle God DID NOT adhere to, make it impossible for this to be the accurate interpretation.

[Floatingaxe]

There was absolutely a chronological order in God's creation. In Paul's writing of 1 Corinthians 11:3, the word 'kephale' meaning 'head' is also the same word used for 'origin, source'. In other words, Christ is the origin / source for every man; The man is the origin / source for the woman; God is the origin / source for Christ. There was no argument about Paul's discussion here, because the churches then did have women pastors, and it was acceptable then, as it should be now.

Man and woman are equal partners, created in the image of God. Even God Himself is three equal persons...no hierarchy there. Hierarchy is a man-made idea. Nowhere is the absolute principle of equality contradicted in scripture. Men are equal to women...all races are equal, all ethnicities, all levels of prosperity before God Almighty.

[gdemoss]

man created hierarchy? Romans 1 declares that a child who disobeys his parents is worthy of death. Man created this? Part of the problem in the end times is children being disobedient to parents according to Paul. A man made idea is that once a man moves out from under his fathers roof he is no longer subject to obey him. That is not Gods idea. Hierarchy can be seen in the very fact that Jesus is always for eternity going to be in subjection to the Father who is the one who put all things under his feet. The Father could not have given Jesus authority over all creation if it wasn't first the Fathers to give. Of course Satan claimed to have this authority but as Jesus said, there is no truth in him. The problem with discussing hierarchy is the abuse of power when man turns the truth of God into a lie. In Gods way, being at the top of the hierarchy makes someone responsible to serve all those who are below them and not to reign over them like carnal man does.

This would be a moot point if those who were placed in a position of authority actually used their office to serve those who are under them to the best of their ability rather than using their position to pull rank and gratify self having those they are over as bond servants. Even Jesus has a plan to gird himself and serve his own in the Kingdom. He won't be serving the self-serving though as everyone at the table would rather serve him than be served by him. It is called the divine nature and is foreign to carnal man who only concerns himself with self. To worry about whether I have equality with another is to be envious of those who I am not equal to and desire to usurp their authority over me by making myself equal with or higher than them. God has given so much more to others than he ever has given to me in both authority and ability. The hardest part has been just finding my proper place and getting into it before the Lord returns to place all of the pieces in their proper place.

Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

God the Father serves us more and better than anyone or anything that has ever existed. Let us strive to be like him and not worry about who has the right to rule but instead who has more zeal to serve as our Father in heaven serves us.

Gary

[exrockstar]

There was no argument about Paul's discussion here, because the churches then did have women pastors, and it was acceptable then, as it should be now.

how did you find this out?

Also, do you believe that there were female rabbi's?

[Floatingaxe]

There was no argument about Paul's discussion here, because the churches then did have women pastors, and it was acceptable then, as it should be now.

how did you find this out?

Also, do you believe that there were female rabbi's?

When you study, you learn. We are called to pastor others. It is also a spiritual gifting. and as Holy Spirit doesn't check the gender before issuing His gifts, we know that women and men are equally able to function in the gift of pastor. Phoebe, as a 'diakonos' would have functioned as a pastor in the church at Cenchrae.

As for rabbis, I doubt that there were females given that title, as they were not given the education that males were, nor considered worthy to it, because of the culture. Jesus came and changed all that. He is the great equalizer.

[Floatingaxe]

There are "scholars" who say everything.

And I agree, it's not a matter of chronology, it's a matter of authority.

We all have the same authority in Christ.

And the problems with your "problem" are the following:

The principle in 1Co 11:3, 8-10; 1Ti 2:12, and the principle applied in Eph 5:22-23; Col 3:18, Tit 2:5; 1Pe 3:1.

1Co 11:3 - ". . .realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

This is the clearly stated order of the principle of authority established by God: God--->Christ--->man--->woman

1Co 11:8-10 - ". . .man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. . .In the Lord, however (spiritual position), woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the first woman came from man, so all men are born of women."

1Ti 2:12 - "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man."

This is not what the word teaches about authority. Some people are far too steeped in the error of man about this subject and cannot see the truth. the word for 'head' has the meaning of 'source' or 'origin'...not authority. My authority is the same as Jesus' authority, which is the same authority my husband has in Christ. It doesn't filter down through anyone but Jesus.

[Matthitjah]

Women pastoring is not about giving due respect to their husbands.

It's about the order established by God at creation that women are not to have a position of spiritual authority over men (1Ti 2:12),

as does a pastor/teacher (1Ti 2:12).

You assume that chronological order in Creation has something to do with rank in the Body of Christ. There isn't any such thing.

Eve was also created by his side, meanwhile, she was taken from him so that she existed even in his creation, therefore, neither was created first.