Can Women Lead The Flock?

[AnotherSinner]

There was no argument about Paul's discussion here, because the churches then did have women pastors, and it was acceptable then, as it should be now.

how did you find this out?

Also, do you believe that there were female rabbi's?

When you study, you learn. We are called to pastor others. It is also a spiritual gifting. and as Holy Spirit doesn't check the gender before issuing His gifts, we know that women and men are equally able to function in the gift of pastor. Phoebe, as a 'diakonos' would have functioned as a pastor in the church at Cenchrae.

As for rabbis, I doubt that there were females given that title, as they were not given the education that males were, nor considered worthy to it, because of the culture. Jesus came and changed all that. He is the great equalizer.

If this is the case....can I ask then....

Is it scripturally sound for a woman to be the provider in the family? Maybe I am going to be seen as nothing short of old fashioned, but the Bible itself says that a HUSBAND'S role is the provider. Or is that something that is out of trend because the times have changed?

If we use the arguement that times have changed for everything...then it could be applied to condone a lot of the practices that scripture stands against today such as abortion, divorce, gay marriage, etc.

[AnotherSinner]

Remember, the issue is authority of the husband.

He is the one who should conclude what the decision will be for the provider in the family.

If he concludes it should be his wife, no problem with Scripture.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Ecclesiastes 9:9 Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun.

Just as women are told not to teach because of their being decieved first in the garden of Eden.... could men not be refered to as the providers due to what God originally spoke to Adam?

Genesis 3:17-19 New International Version (NIV)

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;

through painful toil you will eat food from it

all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow

you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

and to dust you will return.”

Could this not apply to all men that followed after Adam? That because of his following after Eve in the act of being decieved that his role was to sweat and toil to provide for her? Just as men are to toil and work to provide for their loved ones?

Unless I am misunderstanding....it seems again there are certain roles expected us. Man as the protector and provider, woman as the mother and nurturer. If I am wrong in terms of what God's word teaches, please show me.

Edited March 21, 2012 by AnotherSinner

[~candice~]

I am our sole provider, and hubby is the household and family leader. It's been an amazing shift, he is much more of a leader now that he is involved all day every day, and I leave things to him a lot more because he is home and in it, whereas I miss some details because I am at work. Works for us.

[Floatingaxe]

Unless I am misunderstanding....it seems again there are certain roles expected us. Man as the protector and provider, woman as the mother and nurturer. If I am wrong in terms of what God's word teaches, please show me.

That is tradition and religion speaking. Mothers and wives provide, and husbands and fathers nurture.

[AnotherSinner]

Unless I am misunderstanding....it seems again there are certain roles expected us. Man as the protector and provider, woman as the mother and nurturer. If I am wrong in terms of what God's word teaches, please show me.

That is tradition and religion speaking. Mothers and wives provide, and husbands and fathers nurture.

Okay...so because I go off of what the Bible says I am going off tradition and religion? I am really confused here...are we only to obey bits and pieces of the Bible?

[Floatingaxe]

My authority is the same as Jesus' authority, which is the same authority my husband has in Christ. It doesn't filter down through anyone but Jesus.

Perfect example of heresy. . .which results from "wrestling the Scriptures to one's own destruction." (2Pe 3:16)

It is no heresy to understand that we---men and women and children of God---have been given the same authority as Jesus. We are to use it---the authority Jesus has given us (His authority!), the power that God has given us and the leading Holy Spirit gives us. There is no partiality with God.

[alien224]

This is something that I see practiced a lot more in today's day and age. Women while some have done the most amazing things for God in the OT and NT days, I am curious as to what scripture says about women leading in the church. It has always been my belief that men, like they are in the Christian Family Home, are also supposed to be the Leaders in the Church Family. These are some of the key scriptures that I have gained such insight from. Is the understanding I have of these passages correct? Are there scriptures condoning as well as promoting women in church leadership roles?

1 Timothy 2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Women cannot lead the church according to much of the scriptures I have read. That is a position resigned for men. Though women are encouraged to teach one another. Nor are they necessarily discouraged from educating or ministering to children.

Titus 2:3-5 "The older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things - 4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, a homemakers, good, b obedient to their own husbands, c that the word of God may not be blasphemed."

Church leadership roles are defined as those for men.

1 Timothy 3:1-13 "1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a 1 bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not 2 given to wine, not violent, 3 not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not 4 covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a 5 novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the a snare of the devil. "

Please do not think this is an attempt to demean women. I am one, and glad God made me so. Just want to have a better and proper understanding of our roles in scripture as well as ministry. Thank you.

May God Bless You

Dani

It is all about who God Calls. It is not about Gender. God is no respector of persons. In the End times I will pour out my spirit on my sons and daughters. there are lots more verses.

[Tyler John]

Please forgive a newbie for jumping in with extreme bluntness.

I am stunned by some of the arguments in this thread , especially those that are based on selective scripture texts, denominational traditions and worldly perceptions of leadership.

The simple answer is Yes! Of course women can lead the flock and that is why the bible shows us positive examples of precisely that situation. On the other hand, no man or woman should lead the flock in the manner of a corporate CEO, but as the lowest-paid and least publicly-applauded worker. Leaders are called to be servants. The best leaders are rarely recognised as such until an outsider spots their qualities, all of which are seen in the flavours of the fruit of the spirit and the power of the gifts of the spirit.

The problem with this debate is that it should not really be whether women can lead, but about the very nature of leadership in the body. I often notice, though it may not apply to anyone in this debate, that those who argue most fervently for male leadership are normally also those with the least understanding of the scriptural view of good leadership.

[Rekrap]

I personally believe women leading the churches is one of the problem in our Christian churches today. God laid it out in 1 Timothy 2 and other places the order of things in the Church. He also explained the reasoning. Women are different than men. They are more emotional creatures and can be swayed because of this.

God is constant throughout time and scripture. Yes he pours out his spirit on everyone and that does mean that there are women who have the gift to teach and any other of the spiritual gifts. There are roles for that throughout the body of Christ but multiple times it gives the order of the church and the requirements of the pastoral role.

If a woman can pastor a church, please explain the following two verses away with other scripture. (A hint, you can't except by our own faulted reasoning)

1 Timothy 2

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

1 Timothy 3

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the asnare of the devil.

I personally feel this is why America is falling. We have gotten away from His word and inserted our feelings and beliefs into it. This is why homosexuality, sexual perverts and other things are rampant in our churches. We try to turn our God into something else to meet our personal wants and the wants of others instead of us turning our wants and desires to be more like His.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Rekrap

[MorningGlory]

]

I

personally

believe women leading the churches is one of the problem in our

Christian

churches today. God laid it out in 1 Timothy 2 and other places

the order of

things in the Church. He also explained the reasoning. Women

are different than

men. They are more emotional creatures and can be swayed because of this.

More emotional and can be swayed because of this? What Scripture spells that statement out for you?