Obamacare is Just a Cover for Initiating "Mark of Beast"

[other one]

We're not appointed to Gods wrath, but it does not keep us from the rath of the beast's. We are told that a lot of us will die and others will be taken into slavery during the control of the beasts..... but by the time of Gods Wrath I'm not sure there will be many of us left.

One way or the other, if we have the Holy Spirit we'll get by. He certainly didn't protect everyone in the first century and we're told in Revelation that not all of us will be spared then.

[~candice~]

I am not in the pre trib camp and I have honest reservations about spreading a message that we are going to get whipped out of here before the real trouble starts. To me, that is a message of false hope. He may be a 'prophesy pastor' (what is that?) but it doesn't make him infallible. If you enjoyed the books, that is great, but read it as fiction, because that is what it is. If you want a biblical account, read the bible!

Unfortunately, selling many copies doesn't make it "godly". Can you point out where millions came to Christ because of his books???

A couple of problems. If you believe the Bible, it plainly says we are not appointed to wrath, as children of God, and believers in Christ. That only leaves two options available.

1) The Church, as a Body is either removed from the Earth before the sixth seal is opened, when there is absolutely no doubt remaining that it isn't just tribulation and persecution at the hands of people and Satan, but is now directly God's wrath, or:

2) The Church, as a Body, if it is left behind during the Tribulation, and has to be supernaturally protected from any harm. Every single believer.

Those are the only two options. The second option wouldn't make much sense, since other people who come to know Jesus during this time will mostly be martyred for their faith. The oft-heard objection that it isn't "fair" for the Church to escape the Tribulation isn't relevant because the Church has never escaped tribulation or persecution and people who make this argument always display that they have no clue as to what the difference is between earthly persecution and Godly wrath. The point of the Rapture is not for the Church to "escape" anything. The Church doesn't belong in the Tribulation. It has no function in that age and no purpose for being there. And if you believe the Church stays here through the Tribulation, then you have to believe that it is supernaturally protected, otherwise, your ignoring clear scripture on the subject. So even if you believe that the Church has to stay on Earth during this time period, the Church still "escapes" because it would have to be protected by God Himself from any harm to keep His Word, which He always does. And it still makes no sense that God would leave the church here for the Tribulation, protecting it's believers and yet others who come to Christ after the Tribulations begins are martyred. Any scenario that places the Church on the Earth after God begins to pour His wrath out is at odds with scripture.

I do not believe you can biblically make the case that the tribulation is the wrath. We are PROMISED tribulations. Where does it say that the great trib is God's wrath?

And I did not make the case that it "wasn't fair" so don't refute a point I didn't make as if I had made that error.

None of this changes the fact that Tim LeHaye wrote fiction and that it should be read as fiction.

[AnotherSinner]

I am not in the pre trib camp and I have honest reservations about spreading a message that we are going to get whipped out of here before the real trouble starts. To me, that is a message of false hope. He may be a 'prophesy pastor' (what is that?) but it doesn't make him infallible. If you enjoyed the books, that is great, but read it as fiction, because that is what it is. If you want a biblical account, read the bible!

Unfortunately, selling many copies doesn't make it "godly". Can you point out where millions came to Christ because of his books???

A couple of problems. If you believe the Bible, it plainly says we are not appointed to wrath, as children of God, and believers in Christ. That only leaves two options available.

1) The Church, as a Body is either removed from the Earth before the sixth seal is opened, when there is absolutely no doubt remaining that it isn't just tribulation and persecution at the hands of people and Satan, but is now directly God's wrath, or:

2) The Church, as a Body, if it is left behind during the Tribulation, and has to be supernaturally protected from any harm. Every single believer.

Those are the only two options. The second option wouldn't make much sense, since other people who come to know Jesus during this time will mostly be martyred for their faith. The oft-heard objection that it isn't "fair" for the Church to escape the Tribulation isn't relevant because the Church has never escaped tribulation or persecution and people who make this argument always display that they have no clue as to what the difference is between earthly persecution and Godly wrath. The point of the Rapture is not for the Church to "escape" anything. The Church doesn't belong in the Tribulation. It has no function in that age and no purpose for being there. And if you believe the Church stays here through the Tribulation, then you have to believe that it is supernaturally protected, otherwise, your ignoring clear scripture on the subject. So even if you believe that the Church has to stay on Earth during this time period, the Church still "escapes" because it would have to be protected by God Himself from any harm to keep His Word, which He always does. And it still makes no sense that God would leave the church here for the Tribulation, protecting it's believers and yet others who come to Christ after the Tribulations begins are martyred. Any scenario that places the Church on the Earth after God begins to pour His wrath out is at odds with scripture.

I do not believe you can biblically make the case that the tribulation is the wrath. We are PROMISED tribulations. Where does it say that the great trib is God's wrath?

And I did not make the case that it "wasn't fair" so don't refute a point I didn't make as if I had made that error.

None of this changes the fact that Tim LeHaye wrote fiction and that it should be read as fiction.

Agreed, if that is going to be seen as fact...why not say the same of books with opposing points of view that tend to twist scripture such as The Divinci Code?

Edited April 3, 2012 by AnotherSinner

[~candice~]

I am not in the pre trib camp and I have honest reservations about spreading a message that we are going to get whipped out of here before the real trouble starts. To me, that is a message of false hope. He may be a 'prophesy pastor' (what is that?) but it doesn't make him infallible. If you enjoyed the books, that is great, but read it as fiction, because that is what it is. If you want a biblical account, read the bible!

Unfortunately, selling many copies doesn't make it "godly". Can you point out where millions came to Christ because of his books???

A couple of problems. If you believe the Bible, it plainly says we are not appointed to wrath, as children of God, and believers in Christ. That only leaves two options available.

1) The Church, as a Body is either removed from the Earth before the sixth seal is opened, when there is absolutely no doubt remaining that it isn't just tribulation and persecution at the hands of people and Satan, but is now directly God's wrath, or:

2) The Church, as a Body, if it is left behind during the Tribulation, and has to be supernaturally protected from any harm. Every single believer.

Those are the only two options. The second option wouldn't make much sense, since other people who come to know Jesus during this time will mostly be martyred for their faith. The oft-heard objection that it isn't "fair" for the Church to escape the Tribulation isn't relevant because the Church has never escaped tribulation or persecution and people who make this argument always display that they have no clue as to what the difference is between earthly persecution and Godly wrath. The point of the Rapture is not for the Church to "escape" anything. The Church doesn't belong in the Tribulation. It has no function in that age and no purpose for being there. And if you believe the Church stays here through the Tribulation, then you have to believe that it is supernaturally protected, otherwise, your ignoring clear scripture on the subject. So even if you believe that the Church has to stay on Earth during this time period, the Church still "escapes" because it would have to be protected by God Himself from any harm to keep His Word, which He always does. And it still makes no sense that God would leave the church here for the Tribulation, protecting it's believers and yet others who come to Christ after the Tribulations begins are martyred. Any scenario that places the Church on the Earth after God begins to pour His wrath out is at odds with scripture.

I do not believe you can biblically make the case that the tribulation is the wrath. We are PROMISED tribulations. Where does it say that the great trib is God's wrath?

And I did not make the case that it "wasn't fair" so don't refute a point I didn't make as if I had made that error.

None of this changes the fact that Tim LeHaye wrote fiction and that it should be read as fiction.

Agreed, if that is going to be seen as fact...why not say the same of books with opposing points of view that tend to twist scripture such as The Divinci Code?

Definitely. The Davinci Code is also fiction .

[other one]

Definitely. The Davinci Code is also fiction .

the Davinci Code may have some truth to it, but it's not Jesus's bloodline that it's looking into LoL

[Guest]

lol and theres the other thing about end times prophecy, there are soooo many different ways to interpret it. I can literally, sit down and debate both a pre-millenial and a all-millenial viewpoint convincingly. With that being said, Im neither, Im a pan-millenialist, I believe it will all pan out in the end. I don't tend to enter end times debates often either, while I enjoy a good discussion, these often turn into a heated argument and then creates division, so I tend to avoid them-why create division over something that the only 100% way to prove anyone right is to wait for it to actually happen. . .

I couldn't agree more.

When all these things come to pass some will be surprised at the timing of events and some will be disappointed by the same . . . but everything written will come to pass eventually.

[~candice~]

Why is it that every time someone says they believe in a pre-trib Rapture, that someone who does not pulls out the name of Tim LeHaye like a gun? When I accepted a pre-trib Rapture as being the most logical, if one uses a literal interpretation approach and sound exegesis, I do not remember making an oath to uphold the doctrine of Tim LaHaye. Who cares what Tim LeHaye says? I'm not a fan.

Oh give me a break. Tim LeHaye was mentioned in this thread (at least in the posts I am involved in) before the pre trib rapture was. This thread introduced Tim LeHaye, not me. So you can take your criticism elsewhere, because I am not wearing it. I call Tim LeHaye's work fiction because that is what it is. I call the pre trib rapture false because I do not believe it is biblically asserted. The link between the two was not my doing, so any ire it arises from you is not my responsibility.

[~candice~]

Oh give me a break. Tim LeHaye was mentioned in this thread (at least in the posts I am involved in) before the pre trib rapture was. This thread introduced Tim LeHaye, not me. So you can take your criticism elsewhere, because I am not wearing it. I call Tim LeHaye's work fiction because that is what it is. I call the pre trib rapture false because I do not believe it is biblically asserted. The link between the two was not my doing, so any ire it arises from you is not my responsibility.

I think you might want to back your ire off a few clicks. Tim LeHaye was brought up in the conversation, I guess, but it wasn't me who brought him up, and your post was addressed to me. I'm just pointing out some biblical facts. If you do not like that, I am not the problem. You asked me to display that God's wrath was the main component of the Tribulation. I explained that it is and gave examples. If you wish for me to provide the exact scriptures, I would be more than happy to. Not that anyone who continually confuses persecution with wrath ever changes their position.

Please reread. Tim LeHaye was brought up well before that, it was brought up before the pre trib rapture was. I was criticising Tim's writing because it is based on the pre trib rapture, I was not criticising the pre trib rapture because of Tim LeHaye. So you had it backwards and I won't wear your criticism for no reason. You replied to my post addressed to taylor30 in which the original topic was the writings of Tim LeHaye. She likes him, I find him unbiblical, was pretty much the essence of it. So don't complain to me that I bring up TL in response to the pre trib rapture, when I did no such thing.

Nothing you have posted in this thread demonstrates that believers who go through the trib experience God's wrath. If you have verses for it, I am teachable and open ears. I just do not believe it to be true from the study I've done. I am not dogmatic about being post trib, infact I find errors in it just as I find errors in the pre trib doctrine. As far as I am concerned they both don't hold water, though I find the errors in the post trib position to be more trivial (and possible reconcilable). Your last assertion doesn't add to the content of the thread, doesn't encourage discussion amongst equals, so I'm ignoring it .

[~candice~]

You accused me of a dishonest tactic which I did not use. I did not criticise the pre trib rapture on account of TLH. Why can't you just acknowledge that I didn't make the rather immature mistake you thought I made?