I don't understand the trinity

[grandma dolittle]

Grandma, it is no different for Jesus to pray to the father than for you to talk to yourself just as Jesus spoke of the Pharisee who prayed to himself. Jesus is the Word of God so naturally if God were talking to himself it must be his word talking to him.

PRAY, v.i. [L. precor; proco; this word belongs to the same family as preach and reproach; Heb. to bless, to reproach; rendered in Job 2.9, to curse; properly, to reproach, to rail at or upbraid. In Latin the word precor signifies to supplicate good or evil, and precis signifies a prayer and a curse. See Imprecate.]

• 
  
  
• 1. To ask with earnestness or zeal, as for a favor, or for something desirable; to entreat; to supplicate.
  Pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you. Matt.5.
  
• 2. To petition; to ask, as for a favor; as in application to a legislative body.
  
• 3. In worship, to address the Supreme Being with solemnity and reverence, with adoration, confession of sins, supplication for mercy, and thanksgiving for blessings received.
  When thou prayest, enter into thy closet,and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly. Matt.6.
  
• 4. I pray, that is, I pray you tell me, or let me know, is a common mode of introducing a question.
  

Jesus' high priestly prayer to the Father for us could be the equivalent of you talking to yourself and asking yourself to have mercy on your grandchild who just *insert poor behavior here*. We just were privileged to hear the conversation they had.

Gary

Boy! Gary, did you ever hit the mark! Are you hiding in the cornor of my house listening to me? I talk to myself a lot! I understand what you are saying. Bare with me, or is it bear with me... anyway, I am giving it a lot of thought.

Eva

[xero]

I understand the unity of God by analogy like time being past, present, and future, or the states of matter solid, liquid, and gas but His unity also has relevance to the law.

Deuteronomy 19:15"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

The three are unified bearing witness of the truth.

[grandma dolittle]

I live in the country in the Missouri Ozarks and I was sitting in my back yard looking up at the trees swaying with a gentle breeze and I was talking to God as I do a lot. I had a thought that maybe the Trinity may be like that tree I was looking at. The trunk would be God, while the limbs that reached in every direction would be Jesus and the leaves that covered the trees could be the Holy Spirit. I don't know if that was from God or just me. God know how much I love looking at nature and all the beauty he has created for me to enjoy. I felt peace, but then I always feel peace in my back yard.

[saved34]

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He

was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father

after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over

all and giving it to the Father.

Other One, not one single Orthodox Christian scholar will agree with this statement. Arian's, Jehovah's Witness and other cults will hardily agree with that statement. This comes from a fundamental lack of understanding the biblical presentation of the incarnation, and what our Lord VOLUNTARILY did. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit IS God. The Triune God, manifest in three persons. The Son, though being equal with God is said to have "emptied himself". He of his own will gave up his title as God. This does not change his equality with God the Father from eternity past. It was not a thing for him to have to strive or reach for, it was a fact.

Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Keep in mind that all of creation is attributed to God. We know that all of creation is attributed to Jesus.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the peoples are idols, But the LORD made the heavens.

Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, (yehōwāh)Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it,

Isa 42:6 "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations,

Compare those statements to these found in the New Testament.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

All the attributes of God, Jehovah, Elohim, are all attributed to the Lord Jesus Christ. The Father himself calls him God, and attribute's all creation (of which the Old Testament is rich with testimony that it was the Supreme Ruler of all who created) to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Heb 1:9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Heb 1:10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Heb 1:11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,

Heb 1:12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

This is the glory that Christ possessed before he entered the world. Now that he has voluntarily made himself subject unto the Father's will, in that he became truly a man, he can rightly say, "My Father is greater than I". He stepped out of Heaven and into our reality. He subjected himself to true suffering in humanity. Now as a man, the Father bestows upon him the same Glory that he had when he was the eternal Logos. A man who got tired, who got hungry, who pitched his tent (permanently among us). He is now identified with us. Keeping in mind that his nature as God is still completely in tact, but he became a new thing at the incarnation. Even as a man he is still worshiped as full Deity. God the Father is glorified by this.

Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Isa 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

[other one]

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He

was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father

after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over

all and giving it to the Father.

Other One, not one single Orthodox Christian scholar will agree with this statement. Arian's, Jehovah's Witness and other cults will hardily agree with that statement.

You seem to have me confused with someone who realy cares what you believe.....

Jesus said that the Father was his God. He also said that the Father gave him all power and authority...... doesn't sound equal to me.

And he did say that he would be subject to the father after he made his enemies his footstool (Well actually Paul said it but that's good enough for me) So you can take your orthodox teaching to someone else who's never read the bible.

So tell me if Jesus says the Father is greater than he..... and that the Father is his God...... how in the world can you get the understanding that they are equal....... If Paul says that he will be subject to the Father how can you say that they are equal.

Sorry, that view you express just doesn't make sense according to scripture. It is also true that Jesus did create the world, for everything came through him...... but it came from the Father...... From the Father through Jesus.

1 Tim 2:5-7

5 For there is one God , and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time. 7 And for this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

NASB

Am I denying Jesus's diety.... heavens no. He is eternal just as the Father is..... but when you get to the nitty gritty, it's the Father who is the top of things, and orthodox foks can talk till the cows come home and it won't change a thing.

You can blaspheme the Father and be forgiven..... you can blaspheme Jesus and be forgiven....... but if you blaspheme the Holly Spirit you are damned forever.....'

Equality just doesn't fit into that scene.

While we do have a trinity that we call God, most of the descriptions that your orthodox people speak of the make up of that trinity just don't make sense and that's why they say it's a mystery that we can't understand......... ****whispers cause it aint true*******

[mizzdy]

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He

was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father

after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over

all and giving it to the Father.

Other One, not one single Orthodox Christian scholar will agree with this statement. Arian's, Jehovah's Witness and other cults will hardily agree with that statement.

You seem to have me confused with someone who realy cares what you believe.....

Jesus said that the Father was his God. He also said that the Father gave him all power and authority...... doesn't sound equal to me.

And he did say that he would be subject to the father after he made his enemies his footstool (Well actually Paul said it but that's good enough for me) So you can take your orthodox teaching to someone else who's never read the bible.

So tell me if Jesus says the Father is greater than he..... and that the Father is his God...... how in the world can you get the understanding that they are equal....... If Paul says that he will be subject to the Father how can you say that they are equal.

Sorry, that view you express just doesn't make sense according to scripture.

Stepping in here cautiously!

I kinda agree with you here Sam. We even read that Yeshua said that His Father in heaven knew the time and hour yet He didn't. We too often confuse the roles that Yahweh puts Himself in, I dont think that Yeshua was unequal per se but equat to the Father and are fulfill different 'roles'. Just as husband and wife are equal they are also 'unequal' one having greated talents or gifts than the other but work together as echad, one. Yet we know that God is one, we read in so many places espeically in the Psalms where Yah is said to extend His right hand who brings salvation. Is His arm is seen in a 'role' but still God. Echad, a complex unity, in agreement in all things.

shalom,

Mizz

[xero]

God isnt triune or a trinity that concept is pagan in origin.

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel the Lord our God is one Lord."

Jesus is God. The Father is greater than the Son in the same way that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Though the whole is greater its still the sum and the parts as theyre a unified whole. This Psalm proves the Son is God.

Psalm 45:2 "Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.3Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.4And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.5Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

Theres no doubt this Psalm is about Jesus and notice the last line "therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee" which is basically saying "therefore Jesus, thy Father, hath anointed thee". We all know Christ means anointed, right?

The Bible isnt a choose your own adventure novel. If you dont understand something clearly dont make up conclusions seek the answer in its pages or ask the brethren to show the relevant scripture, its what were here for, the enemy has infiltrated the camp long ago and theres alot of pagan propaganda pawned off as christianity.

@grandma doolittle you have got the concept. With a tree there are many ways to reference its life cycle to understand the unity of God. Seed, tree, fruit. Roots, trunk, branches. And like you mentioned trunk, branches, leaves. Parts which are the sum of the whole. Just remember these are analogies are imperfect, because the Creator is greater than the created, so dont put too much thought into them beyond whats necessary to understand Gods unity.

[saved34]

Jesus said that the Father was his God. He also said that the Father gave him all power and authority...... doesn't sound equal to me.

This is why I said understanding the Incarnation is imperative. Note that you said "Jesus" said the Father was his God. When did our Lord receive the very distinct name of "Jesus"? At his incarnation.

Mat 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

When our Lord VOLUNTARILY took on humanity and became a man, he humbled himself under the Father. Scripture clearly says he "emptied himself, "he humbled himself". Now, as Jesus the Son of man, he can rightly say the Father is his God. Our Lord did this voluntarily even though he still was very God. Please read these verses carefully.

Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

This is no mere sub deity, this is the Lord of Glory himself, making himself poor for our sake's. He took on the form of a man, a genuine human being and he did not exercise his own mighty power, but relied solely on the Father. Not by force, but VOLUNTARILY.

2Co 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.

Heb 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

So tell me if Jesus says the Father is greater than he..... and that the Father is his God...... how in the world can you get the understanding that they are equal

Because the word says it. Before his incarnation he is the Word. "with God" and "was God". No such teaching that Christ before the incarnation was not equal with God the Father, he is God. There is only one God, and he has revealed himself in three persons. Philippians makes it very clear that "equality was not a thing to be grasped, but he humbled... himself". There has never been a time where Christ was not God, what we see is Christ becoming man. In that capacity, he is less than the Heavenly Father who is over all and blessed forever. Now as "the last Adam" he will set in order what Adam as a mere man of the earth could not do. Christ(as a man) will redeem all of creation and will deliver it all up to God the Father.

It is also true that Jesus did create the world, for everything came through him...... but it came from the Father...... From the Father through Jesus

Scripture attributes creation to the entire Godhead. God is one. I am not one who believes in three God's. Our God is one, and in eternity past the Logos is presented as right along side the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Father

Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

The Son:

Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

The Spirit

Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Psa 104:30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Am I denying Jesus's diety.... heavens no. He is eternal just as the Father is

When you say deity, what exactly do you mean? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is fully God, and fully man? Do you believe him a lesser God, or do you believe what scripture says concerning him? In Christ dwells all the fullness (nothing lacking) of deity.

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

This is Holy grounds, I don't say this easily or lightly, but scripture says it was God who purchased the church by his own blood.

Act 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

While we do have a trinity that we call God, most of the descriptions that your orthodox peoplespeak of the make up of that trinity just don't make sense and that's why they say it's a mystery that we can't understand......... ****whispers cause it aint true*******

lol my friend, you misunderstand me when I say Orthodox Christianity. I'm talking about all those born again believers throughout Church history who have fought against all manner of heresies and false teachings, especially when it comes to our Lord. The Church is the pillar and the ground of the truth, and it has always fought against this kind of thinking. Whether you know it or not, you are a part of Orthodox Christianity, or you are a part of a cult. To teach that Christ was a lesser creature in his pre incarnation is false, to not understand that Christ in taking on him the flesh of man, is why he is subject to the Father in all things, and lesser than the Father is at the heart of the confusion. Edited April 20, 2012 by saved34

[saved34]

The reason that a trinity and the divinity of Christ is taught is because these doctrines were decided by VOTE at the Nicene council. Mystery Babylon?

http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

Christ himself gave the example that shows that he and God are seperate entities.

Mark 10

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus is clearly telling this guy not to call him good, because only God is good.

So you deny the divinity of Christ, Katy? Even though scripture is filled with references to Christ as God? Which position do you hold then, that of the Jehovah's witness, the Mormons, the arian's, the Christodelphians? These are all the people that you must keep company with in order to deny the clear teachings of scripture. These arguments are older than all of us. It's funny you say "mystery Babylon" in the company of men who would seek to present false Christ's and not the Christ of the Bible. Not trying to be argumentative, but this subject is very near and dear to my heart.

[saved34]

The reason that a trinity and the divinity of Christ is taught is because these doctrines were decided by VOTE at the Nicene council. Mystery Babylon?

http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

Christ himself gave the example that shows that he and God are seperate entities.

Mark 10

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus is clearly telling this guy not to call him good, because only God is good.

So you deny the divinity of Christ, Katy? Even though scripture is filled with references to Christ as God? Which position do you hold then, that of the Jehovah's witness, the Mormons, the arian's, the Christodelphians? These are all the people that you must keep company with in order to deny the clear teachings of scripture. These arguments are older than all of us. It's funny you say "mystery Babylon" in the company of men who would seek to present false Christ's and not the Christ of the Bible. Not trying to be argumentative, but this subject is very near and dear to my heart.

This subject is also near and dear to my heart.

Christ is the son of God. This is what scripture says and it is what I believe.

Not saying you are in one of the cults, but none of them deny this. I asked a direct question concerning the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ. When scripture clearly calls him God, what do you believe about it.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Jesus is the Son of the living God, but this is what God our Father says directly to him:

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."

Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Heb 1:9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Heb 1:10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;