Islam in America

[Guest shiloh357]

You are surely not serious?!

Militant Training Camps: Bolivia, Cuba, Congo, Laos.

Subverting Governments: Chile, Iran, Iraq, Guatemala, Nigaragua, Cuba, Congo, Vietnam.

And that's just the C.I.A of Christian America in the last 50 years!!! (all of those events that lunatic of an interviewer seemed to forget)

Those were not Christians. None of that has anything to do with Christianity. You are really off your rocker on that one. you need to come back to reality.

That's not to mention Hitler doing God's work taking over half of Europe, The British Empire expanding under the name of the Queen (the Head of the Church of England) taking over 1/4 of the world, the Crusades, the Spanish Conquest of the Americas in God's name, the Norman invasion of England.

Hitler was not a Christian and just because some conguering army claims God, doesn't make them "Christian." In fact, history shows that there was nothing Christian about them.

Fascism, Nazism, Communism the Russian and Chinese Revolutions, WW1 WW2, Viet Nam, Iraq... Millions dead and it had nothing to do with religion. None of those wars were fought over religion or for God.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Shiloh it seems like we're coming back to the issue of how you define someone being "christian" or "muslim". You seem to say that Christianity wasn't the blame for those events because they weren't Christians, although the majority of those involved in those events would have identified themselves as Christian. And I agree with you in that Christianity wasn't the motivating factor for most of that.

But.. now whenever something violent occurs in the muslim world you are ready to say that it's Islam at the core of that? Isn't the same law applicable here; sometimes people who identify as a part of a religion commit a crime that isn't always religiously motivated?

You say there are no moderate muslims, I'm saying that there are a lot of people in this world that identify as muslims that you might not think are "muslim". But there isn't a way to draw a distinction, or to have the government weed out the "real" muslims from the "fake" muslims, just like how I mentioned we can't weed out the "real" christians from the "fake" christians.

Basically I'm sensing a double-standard in your logic.

[Guest]

.... how you define someone being "Christian" or "Muslim". You seem to say that Christianity wasn't the blame for those events because they weren't Christians, although the majority of those involved in those events would have identified themselves as Christian. And I agree with you in that Christianity wasn't the motivating factor for most of that.

But.. now whenever something violent occurs in the Muslim world you are ready to say that it's Islam at the core of that? Isn't the same law applicable here; sometimes people who identify as a part of a religion commit a crime that isn't always religiously motivated?

You say there are no moderate Muslims, I'm saying that there are a lot of people in this world that identify as Muslims that you might not think are "Muslim". But there isn't a way to draw a distinction, or to have the government weed out the "real" Muslims from the "fake" Muslims, just like how I mentioned we can't weed out the "real" Christians from the "fake" Christians.

Basically I'm sensing a double-standard in your logic....

The View You Will To See

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:44-45

Is Determined By Whom You Gave Your Heart To

These things I command you, that ye love one another.

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. John 15:17-19

And Any Defense Of The Constant Slavery

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. John 15:20

And Ongoing Murders Of The Islamic

But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. John 15:21-22

Is Just Plain Nuts

He that hateth me hateth my Father also. John 15:23

IMO

Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked, out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man. Psalms 71:4

~

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Oh Hamburgers!]

Joe I never know how to respond to your posts

I have not and never will defend the violence that comes from Islamic extremists. I do not desire oppression of women or different religious beliefs. I am aware these things happen in the world, and yes in many countries with a majority population of Muslims.

However not all who call themselves muslims believe that either... not all majority Muslim countries have sharia law, and there are varying degrees of the importance of religion in their daily lives, just like some Christians adhere more strictly to the Bible & their faith than others. I'm sympathetic to these types of muslims because I think they get clumped in with the other more extreme groups, of which I am against just like everyone else.

He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

John 15:23

In Islam Jesus is actually viewed as a messenger of God, and belief of Jesus as a holy man is held among many muslims. I don't think there is hatred of Jesus, they just don't believe he is God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh it seems like we're coming back to the issue of how you define someone being "christian" or "muslim". You seem to say that Christianity wasn't the blame for those events because they weren't Christians, although the majority of those involved in those events would have identified themselves as Christian. And I agree with you in that Christianity wasn't the motivating factor for most of that.

I was responding to notion that when the American government, in this case the CIA, does something that it is an attempt to spread Christianity by violent means. It was an attempt by Elclude to paint Christianity as being just as violent as Islam. Acts by the US government do not reflect Christianity and are not an attempt by Christians to spread Christianity through subverting governments or setting up militant training camps. I was responding to Elclude's attempt to paint the US Government as the "Christian" government and that any act of our government constitutes an act on behalf of Christianity.

Furthermore, the issue is not about how I define who is or is not a Christian. The issue goes back to your refusal to recognize any standard by which a person can claim to be a Christian when their very way of life is antithetical, and the polar opposite of Christian teachings. It really hurts your credibility when you refuse to acknowledge that such a standard exists. By your approach, a man can rape, molest children, beat his wife repeatedly, but if he claims to be a Christian, we have no means of knowing if he isn't, so we should just assume that he is a Christian even if everything in his life says the opposite. Sorry, but that is just too absurd to buy into. I don't think anyone else will agree with you, either. It simply possesses no intellectual credibility. Even Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruit."

But.. now whenever something violent occurs in the muslim world you are ready to say that it's Islam at the core of that? Isn't the same law applicable here; sometimes people who identify as a part of a religion commit a crime that isn't always religiously motivated?

I am just going off of what Islam has historically done. I am working off of what they do, not what they say. That is where your argument fails. You are like a lot of people who, in their attempt to defend Islam, don't want to examine Islam historically, and it is why you ignore any requests to address the deplorable human rights records of Muslim nations. You cannot defend Islam on the basis of its historical record, and you cannot defend Islam on the basis of its human rights record. You cannot defend Islam on the basis of the "fruit" it produces.

I am not saying that every single Muslim is a violent person, but neither are their any gradients in Islam. Islam doesn't have liberals and conservatives or radicals vs. moderates. Again, those are western concepts that are imposed by western governments to whitewash the fact that they are attempting to achieve their interests through the agency of evil, despotic and terrorist regimes by simply redesignating those regimes as "moderates."

You say there are no moderate muslims, I'm saying that there are a lot of people in this world that identify as muslims that you might not think are "muslim". But there isn't a way to draw a distinction, or to have the government weed out the "real" muslims from the "fake" muslims, just like how I mentioned we can't weed out the "real" christians from the "fake" christians.

Basically I'm sensing a double-standard in your logic.

I am not using a double standard at all. Islam is by nature a violent ideaology. In the eyes of many Muslims, that is its virtue. Islam has a western face that it puts on for western TV cameras. They bank on the overall ignorance of the average American. They realize that we are too self-absorbed and to busy to really look into what islam is all about. So we simply accept whatever the soundbite says on CNN as gospel and never do any fact checking.

Yet I note that your response is internally inconsistent. In your view, "radical" Muslims are not an accurate reflection of Islam, while those whom you call "moderates" are. You buy into the liberal kool-aid about moderate vs. radicals and that the "radicals" make up only 1% of those who call themselves Muslims. You, in effect, draw a distinction between the radicals whom you do not support as truly reflective of Islam and the moderates who you are willing to view as more reflective of Islam. So, you DO weed out and make distinctions. You have to. To claim otherwise is just not intellectually sustainable.

Those in this country who try to paint Islam as an inoccuous, peaceful religion must ingore centuries of Islamic instigated bloodshed, despotism and totalitarian rule. They have to ignore the current state of Islamic countries and the violence perpetrated against other Muslims such as honor killings, spousal abuse, violations of human rights, despotism, anti-Semitism, persecution of nonMuslims, gender apartheid, abject poverty (while the ruling elite live in oppulence), the funding of terrorism, the training of terrorists worldwide and so on. Islam as an ideaology reeks of virtually every kind of evil imaginable. You can't defend Islam if you have to define Islam by its most devout followers, particlarly those followers who live in the Middle East where Islam was born.

I am not operating off of a doublestandard at all. Islam makes no secret that it glorifies death. Death for Allah is the only guarantee of heaven. In Christianity, we don't die for our God. Our God died for us.

[Guest shiloh357]

Joe I never know how to respond to your posts

I have not and never will defend the violence that comes from Islamic extremists. I do not desire oppression of women or different religious beliefs. I am aware these things happen in the world, and yes in many countries with a majority population of Muslims.

However not all who call themselves muslims believe that either... not all majority Muslim countries have sharia law, and there are varying degrees of the importance of religion in their daily lives, just like some Christians adhere more strictly to the Bible & their faith than others. I'm sympathetic to these types of muslims because I think they get clumped in with the other more extreme groups, of which I am against just like everyone else.

He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

John 15:23

In Islam Jesus is actually viewed as a messenger of God, and belief of Jesus as a holy man is held among many muslims. I don't think there is hatred of Jesus, they just don't believe he is God.

Jesus claimed to be God. If they view Jesus as a messenger of God, why don't they believe His message and if they view Him as a messenger of God, why do they murder and imprison those who believe and follow His message??

[Elcule]

You are surely not serious?!

Militant Training Camps: Bolivia, Cuba, Congo, Laos.

Subverting Governments: Chile, Iran, Iraq, Guatemala, Nigaragua, Cuba, Congo, Vietnam.

And that's just the C.I.A of Christian America in the last 50 years!!! (all of those events that lunatic of an interviewer seemed to forget)

That's not to mention Hitler doing God's work taking over half of Europe, The British Empire expanding under the name of the Queen (the Head of the Church of England) taking over 1/4 of the world, the Crusades, the Spanish Conquest of the Americas in God's name, the Norman invasion of England.

All people are equally bad when they believe they have devine justification for their acts of war.

And whoever wrote that ridiculous post about Muslims lying to their enemies because it's permitted in the Koran, well, It was only 200 years ago that the Bible was still being used to condone slavery. A more recent example would be that "pastor" using the Bible to get people to smash their kids in with a rod.

Let's have some perspective and respect for one another please, some people don't seem to understand when they themselves are being just as extremist as the people they propse to be combatting.

100% false premise.

Can you demonstrate that the C.I.A. is Christian and that whatever they do is guided and taught by Christian values? I was under the general impression that the C.I.A. was a secular organization and not a Christian one. Am I somehow incorrect?

As for the "Christian America" statement, not so much, unless you can demonstrate that America is 100% populated by Christians. Only about 25% of America are actual practicing, Bible-believing Christians, so there goes that assertion.

Hitler was implementing his own agenda and personal wishes in his pogroms. The fact that he used Catholic dogma to support them really does not mean much since neither his acts, or Catholic acts of the same nature can be found inside the pages of the Bible. Neither can support for slavery. Lying to ones enemies is found in the Quran. Fact, not lies. None of the things you mentioned, the Crusades, invasions, etc. have biblical support, and at the time, if people would have risen up, en masse and said so, challenged the leaders of the church and stated that avocation of violence in the name of Christ was not found in the Bible, history would have turned out much different. But that would have been difficult, since that was one of the reasons that the RCC did not want common citizens to even have access to a Bible, for fear of the truth. And had people brave enough to speak biblical truth killed for fear of the same thing.

Your "perspective" is no perspective at all.

You say none of those acts have biblical support but that's merely your interpretation, which is the crux of the issue. Not all Muslims interpret the Koran in the same way as the loons who ban all literature, music and culture, who turn women into beasts and lie to their enemies. The fact is that there are plenty of Muslims who don't subscribe to that view just as there are many Christians who do use the bible to justify evil. Hitler claimed he was doing God's work, just as thousands of Muslims claim the same. As for there being no biblical instruction to commit genocide or keep slaves: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+15&version=NIV , http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25%3A44-46&version=NIV , those would beg to differ. So there's Hitler and the slave traders off the hook. So don't give me your pathetic "this is a fact that it says this in the Qu'ran" and completely ignore uncomfortable quotes from the Bible. Both books give people the opportunity to exploit them and do great evil, just as both have the power to do great good in the world.

The Christian America statement, I forgot that everyone in a country had to be a Christian for it to be a Christian country, there was me thinking Egypt was a Muslim country. Facts are that every American President ends their speech with God Bless America, every President has been a Christian, the McCain campaign went to many lengths to try and prove that Obama was not a Christian and was in fact a Muslim in an attempt to smear his campaign. I'm aware of your secular constitution but it's hard to argue that America is not Christian in outlook. Bush was even prayeing to God for advice on weather to go to war or not. That said I do admit that the US do not act to advance a worldwide Christian agenda akin to the Spanish Conquistadores, so yeah, I agree with you it was a false premise.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

It really hurts your credibility when you refuse to acknowledge that such a standard exists. By your approach, a man can rape, molest children, beat his wife repeatedly, but if he claims to be a Christian, we have no means of knowing if he isn't, so we should just assume that he is a Christian even if everything in his life says the opposite. Sorry, but that is just too absurd to buy into. I don't think anyone else will agree with you, either. It simply possesses no intellectual credibility. Even Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruit."

I think you're twisting what I said, because that was not my intent. I had already acknowledged there are some clear cut cases, but not every situation is as stark as you describe it. Suppose the man who raped molested and beat decided to try and turn his life around and began turning to religion. His life says the opposite given his history, but is he now a Christian? How do we know he's not just saying he's Christian or if he truly repents his past? What about a struggling alcoholic that occasionally falls into bad habits but is trying to change. Obviously he's sinning and continuing to sin from time to time. Is he Christian? These are rhetorical questions of course, God's the only one that knows the answer.

All I'm trying to say is people are not either black or white; people are a mix and always have been. It's the same with everyone regardless of religion. Some people are good, some people are bad, most people are a mix of good and bad. Some people interpret their religion one way, others interpret it another way. Think of all the different sects of Christianity - think of all the versions of the Bible alone! You might think only some of them are "true" Christians, but all of the sects believe themselves also to be true christians.

Once again, same with Islam - we have sunnis and shi'ites & fundamentalist and moderates and everyone has slight variations regarding what they believe and what they value from their religion. Religion is something that is experienced differently from person to person, saying all muslims believe the same things is like saying all christians believe the same things - which is certainly not the case.

Islam doesn't have liberals and conservatives or radicals vs. moderates. Again, those are western concepts that are imposed by western governments to whitewash the fact that they are attempting to achieve their interests through the agency of evil, despotic and terrorist regimes by simply redesignating those regimes as "moderates."

I think your premise that Islam doesn't have it's own internal conflicts is simply not true.

http://en.wikipedia....ls_and_branches

Islam is clearly not followed in the same way with all muslims, otherwise why are there so many conflicting interpretations of the faith?

Yet I note that your response is internally inconsistent. In your view, "radical" Muslims are not an accurate reflection of Islam, while those whom you call "moderates" are. You buy into the liberal kool-aid about moderate vs. radicals and that the "radicals" make up only 1% of those who call themselves Muslims. You, in effect, draw a distinction between the radicals whom you do not support as truly reflective of Islam and the moderates who you are willing to view as more reflective of Islam. So, you DO weed out and make distinctions. You have to. To claim otherwise is just not intellectually sustainable.

My whole point in this thread has been to make distinctions between the different types of muslims because I don't think it is fair to wrap all of them up into the same group who are dangerous to America. When did I ever say that one shouldn't make distinctions between people in a religion? I've said that we (humankind) aren't the best judges when it comes to looking at someone's soul and deeming if God consider's them true or not, but I've never said that everyone who says they are of a religion should be considered to be exactly the same as the next guy. I think you're confusing my concerns with judging who is "christian" and who isn't with thinking that we can't make observations about our world & the people in it.

Jesus claimed to be God. If they view Jesus as a messenger of God, why don't they believe His message and if they view Him as a messenger of God, why do they murder and imprison those who believe and follow His message??

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/quran-jesus.html

There's a bunch of quotes that talk about following the teaching of Jesus, Abraham, etc. They do seem to have some bits and pieces of the same message.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Oh Hamburgers!

[OneLight]

I wonder why those Muslims who claim to be "moderates" are so silent toward those who are known radicals? Why are they not trying to have the terrorist training camps in the US closed and banned? Why are they not standing against the Sharia Law that is trying to find its way into our culture? If their religion is so against the radicals, why are they so silent in action?

As much as I would like to believe that there are those who wish us no harm, I don't see it.

[OneLight]

https://www.google.c...iw=1280&bih=675

You so realize that one to the terrorist acts they are against is how we treat Muslims after 9/11? Your link also provides information about Muslims against Allah and Muslims against the Koran. How creditable do you think these sites are? Other site use just paper to send memos. Where is their actions? They protect in the streets for their cause, to further Islam in countries, so where are these people protesting in the streets against the terrorists?

Point is, I can write whatever I feel like writing and still do nothing to back my words.