1 cor. 13:10

[asper]

"There is only one that is perfect his name is Jesus and I'm not him"! I say this all the time. Jesus wants us to look at him and focus on him. We strive to be like Christ but this side of heaven know one is perfect except Jesus Christ.

So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…

If someone says they have no sin the truth is not in them. I am not perfect outside christ. Christ is the only one that is perfect. To say I am perfect in and of myself is just not true. And you proved my point with your comment, "So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…" In order to be like Christ you must first have Christ in your heart. Only Christ can make you like him. You can work all your life but without Christ you will never be like Christ. I hope this help everyone understand my point.

Love in Christ.

thank you for your kind response. i would agree if it was not for the fact that this word does not mean what i believe that you are using it for.

Once again you prove my point. I did not use the word to the best of your understanding. I am very simple man. I have no degree just the many many hours days month and years spent on my knees in prayer. Let me tell you how I define perfect, without flaw, without blimish, never having sinned. Perfect in every way. This idea that everyone has to have the exact words and understanding correct is a doctrine of devils!. Or, majoring in the minors. Christ is the only one that is perfect, ( I use the word perfect with my understand of the word).

i'm sorry that you did not get what i was saying..

i presented some verses and then i presented the definition. i appreciate your opinion but as my name indicates as per (who or what) i will have to take this response as an opinion only until you bring some evidence to confirm your beliefs.

[Bold Believer]

Telios (rendered 'perfect' in this verse) actually means mature or complete. There is also something 'in part' which must eventually become mature, per the context of the verse. Now, what do we absolutely know that is not yet complete, but will be one day? THE BODY OF CHRIST.

[asper]

John said....... we are the children of God, and do not know exactly what we shall be actually, but we know that when Jesus comes we shall see him as he is... All the revealed truth shall be before us. The gifts will no longer be needed at this point.

Being a Neuter Greek Word means nothing......... A floor is considered a Neuter noun in Greek, but a door is not. When we are with him, out of these body's (For we long to cloth or put on the Heavenly body and shed this earthly one) then we will see clearly things not possible before, being with our Lord.

Be blessed everyone.

Hi believeinhim,

Yes, that is true on nouns but adjectives are supposed to match the gender of the one being spoken of. Which would be male if this verse was speaking of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps this will help,

http://www.langintro.com/greek/grammar/adject1.html

[asper]

Telios (rendered 'perfect' in this verse) actually means mature or complete. There is also something 'in part' which must eventually become mature, per the context of the verse. Now, what do we absolutely know that is not yet complete, but will be one day? THE BODY OF CHRIST.

hi Bold Believer, i think that is possible. i will have to research this later...

[asper]

Perhaps I should clear the air so we can have a good discussion instead of some trying to disprove me just because of their beliefs,

A little over 40 years ago I was a roman catholic charismatic for about 6 years. I spoke in tongues just as much as anybody. But the more I studied the more I realized that there is no conclusive proof that tongues exist today. Neither is there any conclusive proof that they do not.

There are times when I visit a particular church that says that tongues exist today. (I would go more because I like their preaching but it is pretty far for me) they don’t push it down my throat like some here appear to be doing. But they do have specific rules that they follow that are according to the Bible. Among other things one is, No interpreter, no speaking in tongues in the church.

So basically what I am saying is do whatever you think is right. But don’t misuse the Scriptures when you propagate your beliefs.

That is all I ask.

[asper]

asper

Hi believeinhim,

Yes, that is true on nouns but adjectives are supposed to match the gender of the one being spoken of. Which would be male if this verse was speaking of Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Php_3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

-------------

your Passage in Cor deals with knowledge and operation of things (Like tongues, or knowing things.) When that which is perfect has come..... then the missing parts are added.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Paul states that we just know in part, we have part of the puzzle.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

When something (Perfect comes) then the part we don't have yet will become known. The missing parts will be done away with.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

The part we don't know gets done away with once we experience Face to Face. Part of the puzzle is a Face to face encounter.

Paul is looking through a glass darkly. There is a separation of glass and image of things he is looking at. When that glass gets removed he will see more clearly. He is looking through a glass into a room that is not well lite. That is his explanation of this. Paul can't see everything in that room clearly.

What is Paul looking at through that glass?

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

He is looking at what the scriptures say. The full glory of the Lord, face to face. As John said, When he appears we shall see him as he is. No longer through the glass. All the glory, wisdom and limitations will be removed. The part we did not know will be done away with.

So, your right, it's not specifically the Person Jesus, but our condition and ability to see him face to face, and all his working, understanding and glory.

Blessings.

hi believeinhim, i think that what you said is very possible. but without further study i cannot speak conclusively on it. but since i proved my point about being careful with the Scriptures i might not look into this for quite awhile...God bless you and yours and all that are here on worthy forums.

[gdemoss]

As I understand Greek adjectives must match the nouns they modify in gender. If I was to speak about something that normally has gender but refer to it as 'that' then it would take on a neuter gender though it be describing something normally having masculine or feminine gender. The argument from the use of gender is useless. The Holy Spirit is referenced as neuter because the word spirit is neuter but when pronouns are used to describe the Holy Spirit they are masculine. Therefore the neuter in this case is absolutely no help in determining what is the perfect that is being spoken of.

Things that I have come to the conclusion that are worthy of consideration to be what is being spoken of here are:

• Jesus Christ second advent
  
• The completed canon of scripture
  
• The kingdom of God (upon completion of the millennial reign)
  

Each of these has different things to support their claims. I was introduced to the idea of the canon through the baptist church that I first attended. Considering that all three gifts mentioned were to do with the word of God being given to people it made sense that there was a possible correlation between them. Also that we had the OT but not yet the revelation of the OT in the NT which would cause it to be complete. The pastor teaching about it hung a lot upon the neuter gender argument which is not even an argument which should be considered due to what I said above and the fact that the word scripture is feminine in Greek. I personally reject this idea now in favor of it being Christ himself or the Kingdom. The hinge point is whether or not the gifts mentioned would be necessary during the millennial reign or not. Either way they are definitely working in our present day.

Saying that people cannot be perfect is unbiblical and we error if we take such a stand.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

The word 'perfect' as used in scripture is an interesting word because the bible declares that even Jesus had to be made perfect.

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Being conformed to the image of Christ is a two stage process for us each being an area of our lives we become perfected in. The first is living out a mature life in the spirit here and now and the second is being manifested as the sons of God in the resurrection of the dead.

This is what happens in this life:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

But in the end we are perfected:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

We are learning to become mature in Gods love in this life through sanctification of the spirit. We continue on in life in our bodies that sin dwells in but through submission to the Word of God in the Spirit we have victory over sin. But one day we will be resurrected without sin unto the most excellent maturity/completeness we can ever experience.

The idea of looking through a glass darkly gives away the scriptures themselves as not being the perfect and that they will no longer be needed when that which is perfect is come. Now I can't think of anything other than Christ himself, the Word of God, that could possibly replace my need for the written word of God.

Just a few thoughts I wanted to share.

Gary

[asper]

As I understand Greek adjectives must match the nouns they modify in gender. If I was to speak about something that normally has gender but refer to it as 'that' then it would take on a neuter gender though it be describing something normally having masculine or feminine gender. The argument from the use of gender is useless. The Holy Spirit is referenced as neuter because the word spirit is neuter but when pronouns are used to describe the Holy Spirit they are masculine. Therefore the neuter in this case is absolutely no help in determining what is the perfect that is being spoken of.

Things that I have come to the conclusion that are worthy of consideration to be what is being spoken of here are:

• Jesus Christ second advent
  
• The completed canon of scripture
  
• The kingdom of God (upon completion of the millennial reign)
  

Each of these has different things to support their claims. I was introduced to the idea of the canon through the baptist church that I first attended. Considering that all three gifts mentioned were to do with the word of God being given to people it made sense that there was a possible correlation between them. Also that we had the OT but not yet the revelation of the OT in the NT which would cause it to be complete. The pastor teaching about it hung a lot upon the neuter gender argument which is not even an argument which should be considered due to what I said above and the fact that the word scripture is feminine in Greek. I personally reject this idea now in favor of it being Christ himself or the Kingdom. The hinge point is whether or not the gifts mentioned would be necessary during the millennial reign or not. Either way they are definitely working in our present day.

Saying that people cannot be perfect is unbiblical and we error if we take such a stand.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

The word 'perfect' as used in scripture is an interesting word because the bible declares that even Jesus had to be made perfect.

Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Being conformed to the image of Christ is a two stage process for us each being an area of our lives we become perfected in. The first is living out a mature life in the spirit here and now and the second is being manifested as the sons of God in the resurrection of the dead.

This is what happens in this life:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jhn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

But in the end we are perfected:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

We are learning to become mature in Gods love in this life through sanctification of the spirit. We continue on in life in our bodies that sin dwells in but through submission to the Word of God in the Spirit we have victory over sin. But one day we will be resurrected without sin unto the most excellent maturity/completeness we can ever experience.

The idea of looking through a glass darkly gives away the scriptures themselves as not being the perfect and that they will no longer be needed when that which is perfect is come. Now I can't think of anything other than Christ himself, the Word of God, that could possibly replace my need for the written word of God.

Just a few thoughts I wanted to share.

Gary

Hi gdemoss,

I just want to comment on the following,

Quote,

As I understand Greek adjectives must match the nouns they modify in gender. If I was to speak about something that normally has gender but refer to it as 'that' then it would take on a neuter gender though it be describing something normally having masculine or feminine gender. The argument from the use of gender is useless. The Holy Spirit is referenced as neuter because the word spirit is neuter but when pronouns are used to describe the Holy Spirit they are masculine. Therefore the neuter in this case is absolutely no help in determining what is the perfect that is being spoken of.

Unquote,

Do you have a reference or an example of a masculine gender taking on a neuter gender (in Greek) because you referred to it as that? I am unaware of this.

As far as the Holy Spirit in the changing of the neuter to the masculine it is a clever way to reveal the truth about the person of the Holy Spirit. I.e. we use this verse to prove the Holy spirit is not just some force. The reason we can do this is because it is just not done. (at least I am unaware of anyone else doing this and no one whom I discussed this with was able either) (other forums)

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Robertson,

Howbeit (δε). One of the most delicate and difficult particles to translate, varying from "and" to "but."

When he, the Spirit of truth, is come (οταν ελθη εκεινος, το πνευμα της αληθειας). Indefinite relative clause (οταν and the second aorist active subjunctive of ερχομαι, no futurum exactum), "whenever he comes." Note εκεινος (masculine demonstrative pronoun, though followed by neuter πνευμα in apposition. See #15:26 for this phrase about the Holy Spirit. He shall guide you (οδηγησει υμας). Future active of old verb οδηγεω (from οδηγος, from οδος, way, ηγεομαι, to lead). See #Ps 24:5 for "lead me into thy truth" (οδηγησον με εις την αληθειαν σου). Christ is both the Way and the Truth (#14:6) and the Holy Spirit is the Guide who shows the way to the Truth (verse #16:14). This he does gradually. We are still learning the truth in Christ.

From himself (αφ εαυτου). In this he is like Christ (#1:26; 12:49; 14:10).

He shall declare (αναγγελει). Future active of αναγγελλω, as in #4:25. See it also repeated in verse #16:14.

The things that are yet to come (τα ερχομενα). Neuter plural articular participle of ερχομαι, "the coming things." This phrase only here in the N.T. The things already begun concerning the work of the Kingdom (#Lu 7:19; 18:30) not a chart of future history. See #Lu 7:20; Joh 6:14; 11:27 for ο ερχομενος (the coming one) used of the Messiah.

Unquote,

Of course you can investigate this on the internet but make sure they are actually referring to this verse and not the ones in chapter 14

Edited July 5, 2012 by asper

[His_disciple3]

"There is only one that is perfect his name is Jesus and I'm not him"! I say this all the time. Jesus wants us to look at him and focus on him. We strive to be like Christ but this side of heaven know one is perfect except Jesus Christ.

So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…

If someone says they have no sin the truth is not in them. I am not perfect outside christ. Christ is the only one that is perfect. To say I am perfect in and of myself is just not true. And you proved my point with your comment, "So I don’t think that you are using that word perfectly…" In order to be like Christ you must first have Christ in your heart. Only Christ can make you like him. You can work all your life but without Christ you will never be like Christ. I hope this help everyone understand my point.

Love in Christ.

I think the word prefect fit in your verse is out of content, it says If I say I have no sin , or if I say that I have not sinned, we are flesh we have sin and we have sinned, but scriptures in 1 John 2: 1-2 says that we sin not, But IF (not when) But IF any man sins, sin no more has dominion over us. we have to deal with it and the flesh, but through the Spirit we can have control over it.

[gdemoss]

Hi gdemoss,

I just want to comment on the following,

Quote,

As I understand Greek adjectives must match the nouns they modify in gender. If I was to speak about something that normally has gender but refer to it as 'that' then it would take on a neuter gender though it be describing something normally having masculine or feminine gender. The argument from the use of gender is useless. The Holy Spirit is referenced as neuter because the word spirit is neuter but when pronouns are used to describe the Holy Spirit they are masculine. Therefore the neuter in this case is absolutely no help in determining what is the perfect that is being spoken of.

Unquote,

Do you have a reference or an example of a masculine gender taking on a neuter gender (in Greek) because you referred to it as that? I am unaware of this.

Upon careful reflection it appears that I misunderstood what I was looking at. I am going back over some things and studying them out thanks to your question. What I had said was not clearly stated and wrought confusion. I was referring to the method used to denote gender. What was revealed to me that I didn't understand was the use of the adjective as substantive. I am currently going back through some of the new testament to understand the method of translation for it.

Thanks for asking the question!

Gary