" Jesus Second Coming"

[Miss Agapelove]

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be

.................at that time thy people shall be delivered......

It's very clear, just in a couple scriptures...........

Jesus Is Lord.

Dearest Brother Mike

Thank you for your lovely colourful reply....could I ask if you get the time would you like to watch my video posted for this thread, I hope that you find it beautiful as brother N Christ & I did... :-)

Love & Blessings sis tina x

[thomas t]

Hello MissAgapelove,

It's nice to have such a list you posted.

I'm just wondering why, in English, It's called "Second Coming". Do the English know for sure that in between he doesn't show up? Maybe he is showing up without anyone being fully aware of this. Or, on the other hand, I have friends who told me that they saw Jesus.

Have a nice and blessed day

Thomas

[Miss Agapelove]

Hello MissAgapelove,

It's nice to have such a list you posted.

I'm just wondering why, in English, It's called "Second Coming". Do the English know for sure that in between he doesn't show up? Maybe he is showing up without anyone being fully aware of this. Or, on the other hand, I have friends who told me that they saw Jesus.

Have a nice and blessed day

Thomas

Hello Brother Thomas....

Nice to meet with you and would you like to see the video that will show you about the second coming ?Please look at music forums you will see my video ....

Love & Blessings

Your sister in Christ ..tina

[Guest]

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

I have checked the scriptures and you are correct, It does not say secret ? I did say at the bottom of the thread that I had copied it from Gotquestions.org....So thank you for pointing this out....

I think it was ment in a way that God has not revield this to us, so its his secret timing ?

1 Corinthians 15:50–54

Mystery and Victory

50 I tell you this, brothers: qflesh and blood rcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

There is nothing above that is secret. Notice what Paul actually said:

• Behold! I tell you a mystery. s
  
• We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52
  
• in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
  

A mystery, is something not formerly revealed (3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.) and here Paul is telling (revealing) it. What is the mystery he is revealing? That not everyone will die (sleep), but that some who are living, will be changed.

Compare that to the rapture passage you quoted:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

What elements are described there?

Cor: We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed

Thess: and the dead (the sleeping ones) in Christ will rise first. hen we who are alive (the ones who will be changed) and remain will be caught up together with them

Cor:in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed

Notice that Paul also said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

He has pointed out, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, giving us a reason why we MUST be changed.

Taking the idea of a necessary change with us to the thessalonian passage, why would we suppose the Christians caught up in the Rapture, are not changed? Of course, we assume they are which makes these to events seem pretty similar, if fact, they are the same event.

Nothing in the thessalonian chapter says a thing about before the tribulation, so why do we? Seriously WHY DO WE? Not one verse in the bible, contradicts the idea that the rapture is after the great tribulation, and not one verse in the bible, says that it is before the tribulation.

You mentioned Matt 24. Let's look at this verse about the rapture from 1 Thess:

for the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

and compare that with Matt 24:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . . . they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Notice the common elements in bold, and notice that the thessalonian passage says nothing about going to heaven at that time. I think that it is helpful to note, that Paul clarified some of this in 2nd thess where he said:

with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him

That sets the topic, and then he says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Don't you think this is describing what Jesus described in Matt 24?:

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17“Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

It sure looks to me like Paul is poining out, the Jesus will not return until after this abominiation in the temple is revealed, just as Jesus said. This abomination is the signal, from which they are to flee, becuase:

"For then there will be a great tribulation"

.No where, are there two second coming mentioned. The passages that are said to be the rapture, share the same characteristics as the return of Christ after the tribulation.

If all that were not clear enough, we have the fact the Paul said of the rapture, that the dead in Christ are raised first, then the living are raptured. If we knew at what point the dead are raised, we would know could discover a point after which the rapture occurs. Fortunelty, we are given that information, in Rev 20:

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Notice, that these people are in the tribulation, becuase they would not accept the mark of the beast, and notice that they are killed for their testamony of Jesus, so we know these are Christians. Then it says:

This is the first resurrection.Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

So, the question becomes, if this is the first ressurection, and then those who are raptured are changes after the dead in Christ rise, and the first ressurrection occurs after the tribulation, how is it possible that any are raptured before the tribulation:

I have stuggled for years to learn why it is, that people refuse to accept the simple statements of scripture, to beleive concocted theories that complicate things bye reinterpreting tidbits torn from their contexts. I understant that many, have only heard one side preached at them or represented in movies and novels, but what ever happened to the concept of being a Berean?:

Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Be a Berean!

Love ya all

[franciskelsey]

Miss Agapelove, first, thankyou for your clear presentation. The lay out was easy to read and digest.

The Rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.

The Second Coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

Concerning Thessalonians, have you ever dwelled as a whole on 2 Thessalonians 1:3 - 2:12? What do you make of this passage and do you believe it is regarding this same coming of Jesus Christ? If not, why not and what is the differences? It would seem to me if not that there would have to be two Thessalonian churches and some Christians going in the pre trib rapture while other Christians are left behind.

Concerning 1 Corinthians, how many events do you believe unfold in 15:20-28?

Concerning Revelation, in Revelation 20:4-6, how many resurrections do you believe in? Is there more than two?

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

It is clear by this you do believe 1 Thes and second Thes are talking about the same event, correct? Please read both of these books again as a whole, in guidence with the Holy Spirit, and tell me honestly, without breaking up scripture, if you still see things in the same light.

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation

(1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

Do you believe all of Revelation is writen in an exact timeline? If so, how about the church of Laodiceans? Are they part of the church? I would also encourage you to study in detail Revelation 3:10 and compare with John 15:17. Biblos.com is a great start.

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

It would seem to me that in this case we do Matthew a big injustice by taking a scripture way out the context it was put in. In Matthew 24:29 who do you believe Jesus was talking to? Was it not His own?

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

My beloved, 1 Corinthians never states secret. In fact, almost all text relating to the second coming state the oppisite.

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

The rapture will be, but that is just a part of the second coming. Again, all of these scriptures in context as a whole certainly tells a different story.

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

Yes indeed. That is what Jesus states, as well is Paul and John.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

That is true. Only for the unbeliever will it be a surprise. It is never said to be imminent.

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The only time the church is mentioned is when being called out by name, and never does Revelation mention church as a whole, meaning all believers.

I really wanted to spend more time on this, as I do love this topic, but somehow time is always running short. LOL

I do not mean to question your faith one bit, but I just encourage you to read everything in it's context thus understanding things better as a whole. I hardly got everything figured out myself and am learning new things everyday. I had to switch my own thinking in some areas because I was clearly shown I was wrong. In this department, it does sem Christians are often fully perswaded in their own hearts and minds and nothing eccept the Holy Spirit will let us see things differently. That is not to say I am 100% right and you 100% wrong, as I believe we will both learn much up on His return that we just cannot all peice together right now. There is always a danger, a big danger, of thinking we got everything down pact.

God bless you and thank you for the article. PS No, I have not watched the vidio, but plan to in just a minute

It should also be noted of course the end time views mean little comparing to our walk with Jesus Christ. Who knows who will still be alive when the rapture happens, whenever it is? The important thing is for all to be ready to meet and to be with Jesus any time He calls us home, and in that light, these end time issues just will not seem quite so important. Jesus, help me to focus on the most important, bringing in the lost. Thank you Father

[Miss Agapelove]

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

I have checked the scriptures and you are correct, It does not say secret ? I did say at the bottom of the thread that I had copied it from Gotquestions.org....So thank you for pointing this out....

I think it was ment in a way that God has not revield this to us, so its his secret timing ?

1 Corinthians 15:50–54

Mystery and Victory

50 I tell you this, brothers: qflesh and blood rcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

There is nothing above that is secret. Notice what Paul actually said:

• Behold! I tell you a mystery. s
  
• We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52
  
• in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
  

A mystery, is something not formerly revealed (3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.) and here Paul is telling (revealing) it. What is the mystery he is revealing? That not everyone will die (sleep), but that some who are living, will be changed.

Compare that to the rapture passage you quoted:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

What elements are described there?

Cor: We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed

Thess: and the dead (the sleeping ones) in Christ will rise first. hen we who are alive (the ones who will be changed) and remain will be caught up together with them

Cor:in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed

Notice that Paul also said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

He has pointed out, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, giving us a reason why we MUST be changed.

Taking the idea of a necessary change with us to the thessalonian passage, why would we suppose the Christians caught up in the Rapture, are not changed? Of course, we assume they are which makes these to events seem pretty similar, if fact, they are the same event.

Nothing in the thessalonian chapter says a thing about before the tribulation, so why do we? Seriously WHY DO WE? Not one verse in the bible, contradicts the idea that the rapture is after the great tribulation, and not one verse in the bible, says that it is before the tribulation.

You mentioned Matt 24. Let's look at this verse about the rapture from 1 Thess:

for the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

and compare that with Matt 24:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . . . they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Notice the common elements in bold, and notice that the thessalonian passage says nothing about going to heaven at that time. I think that it is helpful to note, that Paul clarified some of this in 2nd thess where he said:

with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him

That sets the topic, and then he says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Don't you think this is describing what Jesus described in Matt 24?:

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17“Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

It sure looks to me like Paul is poining out, the Jesus will not return until after this abominiation in the temple is revealed, just as Jesus said. This abomination is the signal, from which they are to flee, becuase:

"For then there will be a great tribulation"

.No where, are there two second coming mentioned. The passages that are said to be the rapture, share the same characteristics as the return of Christ after the tribulation.

If all that were not clear enough, we have the fact the Paul said of the rapture, that the dead in Christ are raised first, then the living are raptured. If we knew at what point the dead are raised, we would know could discover a point after which the rapture occurs. Fortunelty, we are given that information, in Rev 20:

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Notice, that these people are in the tribulation, becuase they would not accept the mark of the beast, and notice that they are killed for their testamony of Jesus, so we know these are Christians. Then it says:

This is the first resurrection.Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

So, the question becomes, if this is the first ressurection, and then those who are raptured are changes after the dead in Christ rise, and the first ressurrection occurs after the tribulation, how is it possible that any are raptured before the tribulation:

I have stuggled for years to learn why it is, that people refuse to accept the simple statements of scripture, to beleive concocted theories that complicate things bye reinterpreting tidbits torn from their contexts. I understant that many, have only heard one side preached at them or represented in movies and novels, but what ever happened to the concept of being a Berean?:

Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Be a Berean!

Love ya all

Dearest Brother....

Thank you for a brilliant exsplanation and exspressing the second coming much better than I did....God Bless you Brother.....

God placed on my heart to post this here, and we can only learn from each other, I already have a picture in my heart what will take place, And I cant WAIT !

Thank you everyone for writting your thoughts here....Lets hope that between us we can help others find hope in Jesus coming home..... :-)

Love & Blessings to you all......sis tina x

[Miss Agapelove]

Miss Agapelove, first, thankyou for your clear presentation. The lay out was easy to read and digest.

The Rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.

The Second Coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

Concerning Thessalonians, have you ever dwelled as a whole on 2 Thessalonians 1:3 - 2:12? What do you make of this passage and do you believe it is regarding this same coming of Jesus Christ? If not, why not and what is the differences? It would seem to me if not that there would have to be two Thessalonian churches and some Christians going in the pre trib rapture while other Christians are left behind.

Concerning 1 Corinthians, how many events do you believe unfold in 15:20-28?

Concerning Revelation, in Revelation 20:4-6, how many resurrections do you believe in? Is there more than two?

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

It is clear by this you do believe 1 Thes and second Thes are talking about the same event, correct? Please read both of these books again as a whole, in guidence with the Holy Spirit, and tell me honestly, without breaking up scripture, if you still see things in the same light.

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation

(1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

Do you believe all of Revelation is writen in an exact timeline? If so, how about the church of Laodiceans? Are they part of the church? I would also encourage you to study in detail Revelation 3:10 and compare with John 15:17. Biblos.com is a great start.

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

It would seem to me that in this case we do Matthew a big injustice by taking a scripture way out the context it was put in. In Matthew 24:29 who do you believe Jesus was talking to? Was it not His own?

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

My beloved, 1 Corinthians never states secret. In fact, almost all text relating to the second coming state the oppisite.

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

The rapture will be, but that is just a part of the second coming. Again, all of these scriptures in context as a whole certainly tells a different story.

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

Yes indeed. That is what Jesus states, as well is Paul and John.

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

That is true. Only for the unbeliever will it be a surprise. It is never said to be imminent.

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The only time the church is mentioned is when being called out by name, and never does Revelation mention church as a whole, meaning all believers.

I really wanted to spend more time on this, as I do love this topic, but somehow time is always running short. LOL

I do not mean to question your faith one bit, but I just encourage you to read everything in it's context thus understanding things better as a whole. I hardly got everything figured out myself and am learning new things everyday. I had to switch my own thinking in some areas because I was clearly shown I was wrong. In this department, it does sem Christians are often fully perswaded in their own hearts and minds and nothing eccept the Holy Spirit will let us see things differently. That is not to say I am 100% right and you 100% wrong, as I believe we will both learn much up on His return that we just cannot all peice together right now. There is always a danger, a big danger, of thinking we got everything down pact.

God bless you and thank you for the article. PS No, I have not watched the vidio, but plan to in just a minute

It should also be noted of course the end time views mean little comparing to our walk with Jesus Christ. Who knows who will still be alive when the rapture happens, whenever it is? The important thing is for all to be ready to meet and to be with Jesus any time He calls us home, and in that light, these end time issues just will not seem quite so important. Jesus, help me to focus on the most important, bringing in the lost. Thank you Father

Dearest Brother Franciskelsey

Thank you for your kind words, I would like to mention that I had every intention to write my thoughts here on this wonderful event that will take place in Gods timing...

You and brother Omegaman have really pointed out where I failed, thank you & I hope that you will enjoy the video,and I pray that it will touch your heart as it did mine....

I am only grieved I could not place that video here, as I feel it will speak to peoples hearts just as loud as the scriptures....

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply, It was truely wonderful to read and I shall take your advice and read up..... :-) As I have stated already we are all learning about God's breathed words, every day is learning curve for me, and I never get tired of reading the same scriptures over and over....

How exciting though, to think that we may reach the Eternal Heaven one day?

I hope that I have served God hard enough to reach this Eternal place that God is preparing for all of his beloved loyal children.....x

Love & Blessings your sister in Christ tina x

[JeannieC]

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

I have checked the scriptures and you are correct, It does not say secret ? I did say at the bottom of the thread that I had copied it from Gotquestions.org....So thank you for pointing this out....

I think it was ment in a way that God has not revield this to us, so its his secret timing ?

1 Corinthians 15:50–54

Mystery and Victory

50 I tell you this, brothers: qflesh and blood rcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

There is nothing above that is secret. Notice what Paul actually said:

• Behold! I tell you a mystery. s
  
• We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52
  
• in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
  

A mystery, is something not formerly revealed (3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.) and here Paul is telling (revealing) it. What is the mystery he is revealing? That not everyone will die (sleep), but that some who are living, will be changed.

Compare that to the rapture passage you quoted:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

What elements are described there?

Cor: We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed

Thess: and the dead (the sleeping ones) in Christ will rise first. hen we who are alive (the ones who will be changed) and remain will be caught up together with them

Cor:in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed

Notice that Paul also said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

He has pointed out, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, giving us a reason why we MUST be changed.

Taking the idea of a necessary change with us to the thessalonian passage, why would we suppose the Christians caught up in the Rapture, are not changed? Of course, we assume they are which makes these to events seem pretty similar, if fact, they are the same event.

Nothing in the thessalonian chapter says a thing about before the tribulation, so why do we? Seriously WHY DO WE? Not one verse in the bible, contradicts the idea that the rapture is after the great tribulation, and not one verse in the bible, says that it is before the tribulation.

You mentioned Matt 24. Let's look at this verse about the rapture from 1 Thess:

for the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

and compare that with Matt 24:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . . . they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Notice the common elements in bold, and notice that the thessalonian passage says nothing about going to heaven at that time. I think that it is helpful to note, that Paul clarified some of this in 2nd thess where he said:

with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him

That sets the topic, and then he says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Don't you think this is describing what Jesus described in Matt 24?:

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17“Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

It sure looks to me like Paul is poining out, the Jesus will not return until after this abominiation in the temple is revealed, just as Jesus said. This abomination is the signal, from which they are to flee, becuase:

"For then there will be a great tribulation"

.No where, are there two second coming mentioned. The passages that are said to be the rapture, share the same characteristics as the return of Christ after the tribulation.

If all that were not clear enough, we have the fact the Paul said of the rapture, that the dead in Christ are raised first, then the living are raptured. If we knew at what point the dead are raised, we would know could discover a point after which the rapture occurs. Fortunelty, we are given that information, in Rev 20:

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Notice, that these people are in the tribulation, becuase they would not accept the mark of the beast, and notice that they are killed for their testamony of Jesus, so we know these are Christians. Then it says:

This is the first resurrection.Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

So, the question becomes, if this is the first ressurection, and then those who are raptured are changes after the dead in Christ rise, and the first ressurrection occurs after the tribulation, how is it possible that any are raptured before the tribulation:

I have stuggled for years to learn why it is, that people refuse to accept the simple statements of scripture, to beleive concocted theories that complicate things bye reinterpreting tidbits torn from their contexts. I understant that many, have only heard one side preached at them or represented in movies and novels, but what ever happened to the concept of being a Berean?:

Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Be a Berean!

Love ya all

Dearest Brother....

Thank you for a brilliant exsplanation and exspressing the second coming much better than I did....God Bless you Brother.....

God placed on my heart to post this here, and we can only learn from each other, I already have a picture in my heart what will take place, And I cant WAIT !

Thank you everyone for writting your thoughts here....Lets hope that between us we can help others find hope in Jesus coming home..... :-)

Love & Blessings to you all......sis tina x

Thank you so much Sister Tina for your timely posting this topic and also to you Omegaman for your contribution. I've always been a bit intimidated trying to understand the second coming and have been studying it more lately and this thread has helped me a lot.

[Guest]

Thank you Tina and Jeannie, for your kind and thoughtful words. Participating in complicated, controversial, and confusing topics is always so much more pleasurable, when it can be done with level heads, open minds, and hungry hearts. Too many seem to think this topic is something to fight about, instead of taking the opportunity to learn from each other.

Blessings to both of you as you continue to search his word.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Tina.

There's another perspective. Consider the following:

What if there ISN'T a period of "seven years of Tribulation?" Everyone who says that there is such a period makes the ASSUMPTION that the "tribulation" is the same time period as the "70th Seven of Dani'el." Furthermore, the same people also make the ASSUMPTION that Dani'el 9:24-27, particularly verse 27, is about the character commonly called the "Antichrist." Finally, the worst ASSUMPTION is that the Olivet Discourse was addressed to "Christians." Who was Yeshua` actually talking to during His address on Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives)? These are fundamental questions that need to be investigated before one makes a stance on these matters.

I might be considered a posttribulational rapturist if it weren't for my view on the tribulation and the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9.

There are two underlying truths within the Olivet Discourse that result in two fundamental extremes: First, the Olivet Discourse begins with a general warning of impending disaster for Jerusalem and the surrounding area, something that would happen sooner than later. Second, the Olivet Discourse runs the course of time until the Second Coming of Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ), and this second coming is literal and actual. It is not accomplished in some "spiritual" way nor was it accomplished in the first century A.D. From these facts, the preterists focus on the first and try to explain away the second. On the other hand, die-hard futurists, particularly those of the pretribulational rapturist camp, want to focus on the second and attempt to explain away the first.

However, one can accept BOTH and be a literalist and a futurist without any compromise or contradiction, and the answer is this: Firstly, the "tribulation" that Yeshua` was speaking about was something that began in the first century A.D. but will continue until the Lord returns. Secondly, the seventieth seven does NOT conclude with information about the Antichrist but with the MESSIAH HIMSELF! Furthermore, half of the seventieth seven IS ALREADY COMPLETED! It was YESHUA` who confirmed or strengthened the covenant with many for one seven, namely the DAVIDIC COVENANT! It was YESHUA` who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease as He gave Himself as the LAST SACRIFICE THAT GOD WOULD ACCEPT FOR REDEMPTION (Hebrews 9-10)! It was YESHUA` who, for the overspreading of abominations, namely the rejections of the Messiah by the leaders of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah), LEFT THEM DESOLATE until the consummation (Matthew 23:37-39)!

With these realizations in place, one can see that we are ALREADY in the "tribulation" as described by Yeshua` and that there is only one HALF of the 70th Seven left to fulfill, AND that won't be fulfilled until Yeshua` arrives, for Isra'el must accept Him as their King! So, we are currently in the middle of the one Seven, in a time period called the Time of Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) Trouble, and the second half will not begin until Yeshua` comes back. However, I accept that the "Rapture" or the "Snatching Away" by the Messengers (Greek: aggeloi or "angels") happens shortly before the actual arrival of Yeshua` in the air over Isra'el when He descends to rescue His people Isra'el.

Why will He be rescuing ("saving") His people Isra'el? BECAUSE THEY ARE MISPACHAH, HIS FAMILY!!! And, He will rescue them, not for their sakes, but for the FATHERS' sakes (Romans 11)! He will rescue Y'hudah's children (the Jews) because they are children of Y'hudah (Judah); they are Isra'el's or Ya`aqov's children; they are Yitschaq's (Isaac's) children; and they are Avraham's (Abraham's) children! He will rescue Rei`uven's (Reuben's) children for the same reasons! He will rescue Shim`own's (Simeon's) children for the same reasons! He will rescue Leviy's (Levi's) children for the same reasons! He will rescue Yissachar's children, and Naftaliy's children, Zevulun's children, Gad's children, Dan's children, Asher's children, Yosef's children, both through Efrayim and through Manasheh, and Binyamin's children, all for the same reasons! Sure, those who knew Him in life made the mistake of thinking that He wasn't haMashiach Elohiym, the Messiah of God, that God promised would come at that time in history, but they were partially blinded to allow the Gentiles entrance into God's Kingdom! As that time period draws to a close, God will draw them back until one day soon, they will cry out to Yeshua`, "Baaruwkh habaa' b-shem YHWH! (Psalm 118:26)" "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD," or rather, "Welcome, Comer in the authority of ADONAI (YaHuWH)!" When they can welcome Him back and cry out to Him, "Howshiy`aah naa'!" ("Hosanna!", Psalm 118:25), which means "Help us, now!" or "Help us, please!", THEN He will return!