Attending church

[nebula]

Splitting off from a previous discussion:

I’m curious as to your response to whether you attend a local church or not. We could always start a separate thread?

As a Christian I am called to have fellowship with other Christians. (Heb. 10:25) No Christian who attempts to grow on his or her own effort is better off than those who seek the encouragement of others. (Pro. 27:17 & Eccl 4:12) Can we agree on this?

My story, in brief: I made the decision to follow Jesus around the age of 4 or 5. So I've been going to church, listening to sermons, reading the Bible, praying, listening to Christian music, fellowship with believers, etc. all my life.

I've also been through a lot of pain, struggles, heartache, disappointments, loneliness, bad experiences with Christians, and the like.

At some point I began having a nagging suspicion that what we call "church" isn't the "church" of the Scriptures. But I couldn't say what it should look like, just that things weren't right.

Just over 10 years ago, I quit attending the church I had participated in. The reason - I was burned out by the church program, the church obligations, the church facade. I call it "Churchianity". Really, when you come to church battered by daily life and then you leave church feeling even worse - something is seriously wrong!

Every church I tried to attend afterward ran me smack into the same problem. Sunday morning is a program, not a place for fellowship.

A couple years ago, the Lord put me back in a church; the only reason I stayed there was because there were friends who invited me to go out with them to lunch after the service. I know that seems shallow, but I have never found a typical church to develop a true "fellowship of believers" - unless its a small group, and that can have it's own problems, as I found out the hard way. So, I've been attending a church, but it's for the fellowship afterwards. And there is a small home group with the church I now go to where again there is real fellowship. But the Sunday programmed services still distress me.

But recently, due to some circumstances, I haven't been able to make it to the Sunday services.

Thus, the reason for my vague answer to your question.

I hope this makes sense?

[gdemoss]

Nebula, thanks for sharing your story openly about the board. I was blessed by it. It is so good not to feel like the only one who sees that something is wrong with what is passing for church on Sunday mornings in many congregations. The hardest part is knowing how to be one who can work toward 'growth' in the church by living the example and meekly asking questions when appropriate. My first experience in trying to understand why things seemed wrong got me the ax for being unorthodox in my thinking and questions. My newest church I am attending, I have worked harder to be wise as a serpent (subtly giving information through introducing thoughts as seed) and gentle as a dove. My new pastor has been real receptive so far and I do everything I can to support him. Nobody said it would be easy

Gary

[stevethewriter]

I was not raised in a church going family but did attend a service every now and then when I was in a "searching for God" phase. I attended several services at a local Baptist Church as well as a couple at a Catholic church.

I found the Catholic church service to be too boring. It was a small building and the priest was quite literally droning on while giving the message. Didn't grab me at all.

But it was the Baptist church that turned me off the most and even caused me to give up on God for awhile. I usually went alone and to my surprise hardly anyone said hello to me or made an effort to welcome me. They surely must have known I was not one of the regulars.

The thing that REALLY soured me though was when I went there for an Easter service. They were doing communion which in this church was members only. I didn't have any idea. If the Minister mentioned it beforehand I must have not heard it. Anyway, some of the regulars must have known that I wasn't a member because one of them PHYSICALLY OPENED MY HAND AND REMOVED THE WAFER I was holding, telling me "You can't do this". I just sat there stunned for a moment, but afterwards I felt so angry and insulted that I swore off God for a number of years on the basis that if these church goers represented what it was to be Christian, I wanted no part of it.

I stayed out of church until I met my now wife. She first took me to her church, which is Pentecostal/Evangelical and I was completely blown away. The worship service had an energetic, concert like atmosphere, the people were friendly and the Pastor delivered an entertaining and informative sermon that I paid close attention to. This is a church where it's not uncommon to see someone in jeans and a polo shirt on a Sunday morning. These certainly weren't like the stuffy people that had been in that Baptist church years ago. It's so refreshing to be part of a Church that's alive with the Lord's power. I have since joined the worship team there as part of the choir.

I do believe though that the essence of the "Church" is found not in a physical building but in the people who worship there. I think the true "Church" is the body of believers.

Matthew 18:20 states: "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them"

You certainly don't need a formal Church building for such fellowship to take place.

Edited October 6, 2012 by stevethewriter

[Willa]

I go to church to hear a good Bible teacher expounding on God's Word. The only one I would watch on TV is Dr. Charles Stanley, and on radio I enjoy . But none can teach like my own pastor. We find more fellowship in work parties, short term mission projects, womens ministries, mens prayer groups etc. And I do enjoy and need fellowship. But I go to church to worship God. It is God centered, not people centered. Sure, I read, study and pray at home, but it is not the same as corporate worship. People always let us down. They are as human and imperfect as we are.

If you are unable to go to church, perhaps you should start a neighborhood Bible study, or ask people at your church to attend.

[JohnD]

Splitting off from a previous discussion:

I’m curious as to your response to whether you attend a local church or not. We could always start a separate thread?

As a Christian I am called to have fellowship with other Christians. (Heb. 10:25) No Christian who attempts to grow on his or her own effort is better off than those who seek the encouragement of others. (Pro. 27:17 & Eccl 4:12) Can we agree on this?

My story, in brief: I made the decision to follow Jesus around the age of 4 or 5. So I've been going to church, listening to sermons, reading the Bible, praying, listening to Christian music, fellowship with believers, etc. all my life.

I've also been through a lot of pain, struggles, heartache, disappointments, loneliness, bad experiences with Christians, and the like.

At some point I began having a nagging suspicion that what we call "church" isn't the "church" of the Scriptures. But I couldn't say what it should look like, just that things weren't right.

Just over 10 years ago, I quit attending the church I had participated in. The reason - I was burned out by the church program, the church obligations, the church facade. I call it "Churchianity". Really, when you come to church battered by daily life and then you leave church feeling even worse - something is seriously wrong!

Every church I tried to attend afterward ran me smack into the same problem. Sunday morning is a program, not a place for fellowship.

A couple years ago, the Lord put me back in a church; the only reason I stayed there was because there were friends who invited me to go out with them to lunch after the service. I know that seems shallow, but I have never found a typical church to develop a true "fellowship of believers" - unless its a small group, and that can have it's own problems, as I found out the hard way. So, I've been attending a church, but it's for the fellowship afterwards. And there is a small home group with the church I now go to where again there is real fellowship. But the Sunday programmed services still distress me.

But recently, due to some circumstances, I haven't been able to make it to the Sunday services.

Thus, the reason for my vague answer to your question.

I hope this makes sense?

Sure, it makes complete sense.

First we (those of us who have been believers for some time now... I am 51 3/4 {LOL} and like you came to the Lord at age 5 or 6 some 45 years ago {for me that is})... but first we must realize the Church is the product of a dysfunctional family. God intended the Jews to be a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6). The Jews (who were called apart and effectively bred to be leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ) abdicated by refusing to depart the Old Covenant and embrace the New by accepting Yeshua HaMoshiakh (Jesus the Christ) as Savior and LORD (YHVH incarnate). So, Gentiles had to take up the leadership... at a time when the Jews persecuted the Church, then the Romans picked up where the Jews left off with the unwitting satanic reason to separate the New Covenant from the Jews by generations... time to develop ethnic differences, traditional, certainly doctrinal differences in a long line of heritage (some 4 centuries). Then the Roman interference / invasion took over from Emperor Constantine onward wherein essentially the Roman Empire morphed into a religion of man and they slapped the label "Christian" on it. The Protestant movement did not reform anywhere nearly far enough, and we have the faith as a functioning entity abandoned by the Jews, ravaged by the Romans, tweaked by the Reformers and the upstarts who try to finish the job of the Reformers... and I envision God having to hold his nose to concede as much as he does just to save those of us who are saved despite all of the above.

The Church Congregation Assembly (which is not the Church as the people who believe in Jesus are the Church) should be a spiritual hospital and a spiritual university and a place of meeting for fellowship and revival (spiritual booster shots to get us through the week ahead) and the doors should never close. And the people should not be stagnate "laity" but the priests God calls each and every one of us who believe to become.

1 Peter 2:3-11 (NASB95)

3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,

5you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

6 For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”

8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

Revelation 1:6 (NASB95)

6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10 (NASB95)

10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Anything less than this will fall ill to the ailments that have plagued "the Church" for 2000 years... post-Christian nations, congregations resembling country clubs more than spiritual hospitals / education centers for training priests to become priests and then to fan out across the globe spreading the gospel...

And yes, Virgina, God does make concessions... read 1 Samuel 8 for starters.

[nebula]

The Jews (who were called apart and effectively bred to be leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ) abdicated by refusing to depart the Old Covenant and embrace the New by accepting Yeshua HaMoshiakh (Jesus the Christ) as Savior and LORD (YHVH incarnate). So, Gentiles had to take up the leadership... at a time when the Jews persecuted the Church, then the Romans picked up where the Jews left off with the unwitting satanic reason to separate the New Covenant from the Jews by generations... time to develop ethnic differences, traditional, certainly doctrinal differences in a long line of heritage (some 4 centuries).

I agree with you except for this one point.

Not all Jews abdicated.

And it wasn't just persecution from Jews that led Gentiles to separate themselves, but also Roman persecution against the Jews which enticed the Gentile believers to separate themselves from all appearances of Judaism.

[GoldenEagle]

Splitting off from a previous discussion:

I’m curious as to your response to whether you attend a local church or not. We could always start a separate thread?

As a Christian I am called to have fellowship with other Christians. (Heb. 10:25) No Christian who attempts to grow on his or her own effort is better off than those who seek the encouragement of others. (Pro. 27:17 & Eccl 4:12) Can we agree on this?

My story, in brief: I made the decision to follow Jesus around the age of 4 or 5. So I've been going to church, listening to sermons, reading the Bible, praying, listening to Christian music, fellowship with believers, etc. all my life.

I've also been through a lot of pain, struggles, heartache, disappointments, loneliness, bad experiences with Christians, and the like.

At some point I began having a nagging suspicion that what we call "church" isn't the "church" of the Scriptures. But I couldn't say what it should look like, just that things weren't right.

Just over 10 years ago, I quit attending the church I had participated in. The reason - I was burned out by the church program, the church obligations, the church facade. I call it "Churchianity". Really, when you come to church battered by daily life and then you leave church feeling even worse - something is seriously wrong!

Every church I tried to attend afterward ran me smack into the same problem. Sunday morning is a program, not a place for fellowship.

A couple years ago, the Lord put me back in a church; the only reason I stayed there was because there were friends who invited me to go out with them to lunch after the service. I know that seems shallow, but I have never found a typical church to develop a true "fellowship of believers" - unless its a small group, and that can have it's own problems, as I found out the hard way. So, I've been attending a church, but it's for the fellowship afterwards. And there is a small home group with the church I now go to where again there is real fellowship. But the Sunday programmed services still distress me.

But recently, due to some circumstances, I haven't been able to make it to the Sunday services.

Thus, the reason for my vague answer to your question.

I hope this makes sense?

Thanks for sharing Nebula. I'm sorry you haven't been able to make it to Sunday services. I will pray for whatever is keeping you from it. I actually think as long as some is plugged in to a local body of Believers that things go a lot better for them. At least according to God’s Word.

Proverbs 27:17

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12

Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.

A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

Psalms 133:1

How good and pleasant it is when God’s people live together in unity!

That can look like a small group, Sunday school, etc.

It seems like a majority of Christians who stop attending a local church and participating in the fellowship are often scarred due to deep hurts inflicted by other Christians.

[nebula]

Thanks for sharing Nebula. I'm sorry you haven't been able to make it to Sunday services. I will pray for whatever is keeping you from it. I actually think as long as some is plugged in to a local body of Believers that things go a lot better for them. At least according to God’s Word.

Proverbs 27:17

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12

Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.

A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

Psalms 133:1

How good and pleasant it is when God’s people live together in unity!

That can look like a small group, Sunday school, etc.

It seems like a majority of Christians who stop attending a local church and participating in the fellowship are often scarred due to deep hurts inflicted by other Christians.

Well, my experience with Sunday morning services aren't what you listed with these verses - unfortunately. But I am still able to attend a home fellowship group, which actually is giving me these.

[GoldenEagle]

I too had bad experiences with church over the years. I grew up in a United Methodist Church. I didn't attend regular, but once in a while… I started going to church every week, and remained at the Methodist Church till I learned about their connection to the World Council of Churches, and their liberal views on abortion and homosexuality. I bought a Bible and read it through, and sought a church that matched up the Bible.

There is no perfect church, but I am trying to go where I feel the Lord is leading. This is a very condensed version of what took place, but you get a general idea. I think God wants us to attend church, but I have found that in this day and time, a good church that doesn't compromise is hard to find.

Thanks for sharing Butero. This as a blessing to me and an encouragement. I particularly like what you said in bold.

I was not raised in a church going family but did attend a service every now and then when I was in a "searching for God" phase. I attended several services at a local Baptist Church as well as a couple at a Catholic church.

I stayed out of church until I met my now wife. She first took me to her church, which is Pentecostal/Evangelical and I was completely blown away.

I do believe though that the essence of the "Church" is found not in a physical building but in the people who worship there. I think the true "Church" is the body of believers.

Matthew 18:20 states: "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them"

You certainly don't need a formal Church building for such fellowship to take place.

Wow Steve I’m so sorry for the treatment you received. I’m glad you found a church where you can plug into and worship God.

I particularly like the comment in bold. And yes you don’t need a formal church building for fellowship to take place. Growing up we would worship in hotel spaces we rented as a Church in various churches we were part of. No building. We had small groups for Bible study and fellowship during the week at people’s homes. I miss those days.

Re: Matthew 18:20 – I would say that passage in context is about Church discipline and dealing with Sin in the Church. It is a great verse. But it really is not a passage dealing with Church fellowship. Regarding the Biblical response each individual Christian is responsible to God and has the Holy Spirit living inside him or her. (Eph 1:13) We are all priests to God (1 Pet. 2:4-9) and Jesus Christ is our High Priest (Hebrews 3:1, 4:14).

Eph 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard [and believed] the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Eagle

[GoldenEagle]

The Jews (who were called apart and effectively bred to be leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ) abdicated by refusing to depart the Old Covenant and embrace the New by accepting Yeshua HaMoshiakh (Jesus the Christ) as Savior and LORD (YHVH incarnate). So, Gentiles had to take up the leadership... at a time when the Jews persecuted the Church, then the Romans picked up where the Jews left off with the unwitting satanic reason to separate the New Covenant from the Jews by generations... time to develop ethnic differences, traditional, certainly doctrinal differences in a long line of heritage (some 4 centuries).

I agree with you except for this one point.

Not all Jews abdicated.

And it wasn't just persecution from Jews that led Gentiles to separate themselves, but also Roman persecution against the Jews which enticed the Gentile believers to separate themselves from all appearances of Judaism.

I agree not all Jews abdicated. There are Messianic Jews then and today.

A few thoughts on Rome & the early Church:

First, Christianity was considered a cult by the Roman Empire. Perhaps even atheistic if you will as Romans believed in many gods. Christians refused to worship the Emperor.

Second, Christians were considered cannibals as evidence by partaking in the Lord’s Supper – the body and blood of Christ.

Third, Christians did not worship Roman gods. From a religious standpoint Romans naturally thought that killing Christians would appease their gods by ending the rebellion of Christians against the gods.

Fourth, Romans believed that conversion of citizens to this new teaching could sway people from the natural order of things socially and economically. The Roman Empire was built on war and order. The teaching that all people were equal in God’s eyes was not received well. Over 50% of the population were slaves in the Roman Empire. Roman temples often had prostitutes associated with them. The temple of Aphrodite in Corinth probably had over 1000 temple prostitutes. Christians taught that adultery and fornication was evil. Not to mention the economic repercussion of people no longer buying idols and food to sacrifice to idols.