De-Evolution of Culture

[GoldenEagle]

come on, just because 2 people of the opposite sex live together doesn't mean that they are having sex- remember god has giving us a spirit of self control. we shouldn't let man's or church tradition overshadow what the word says. be blessed.

can you give me scripture that states a man and a woman must live in seperate buildings?

I agree if two people of the opposite sex live together it doesn't mean they're engaging in sex - especially if they are not romantically involved. Perhaps the distinction wasn't apparent. So a roomate is one thing... But I'm talking about two people who are living together as husband and wife without being married before God or otherwise. What do you think of this?

God has given us a spirit of self-control. At best some things permissible but not beneficial?

Re: Scritpture... Sorry I asked first. But I do have some passages to discuss if you don't have anything you'd like to present first.

Perhaps we should first address some myths about living together before marriage. Let's talk about what God's Word says as you suggest. That is always best.

Myth #1 Living together first will tell us if we are right for one another.

Biblical marriage is a totally different proposition than living together. Biblical marriage is built upon a covenant promise to remain faithful to one person of the opposite sex for life. Seriosly, even from a logical standpoint part of the excitement and adjustment of being newly-weds is embarking in a new journey together. If you already live together doesn’t that cheapen the relationship, the vows, the mirror image of Christ and His church?

Proverbs 2:16-17 [Wisdom] will save you also from the adulteress, from the wayward wife with her seductive words, who has left the partner of her youth and ignored the covenant she made before God.

Myth #2 Living together will show us if we are sexually compatible.

If we were animals perhaps. Sex between human beings was designed to be physical, emotional, and spiritual. Having sex before marriage is just cheapening what God designed to be between one man and one woman. Marriage is to imitate the pure, holy relationship between Christ and the Church.

Heb. 13:4 “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.”

One man (husband) for each woman (wife) and vice-versa. Paul says that Satan specifically tempts us because of our lack of self-control. After all the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak no?

1 Cor. 7:1-2, 5, 9 ¹Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. ² Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. ⁵ Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

⁹ {To unmarried and widows} but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

We are to avoid sexual immorality as we are called to seek after God to live a pure, holy life.

1Thess. 4:3, 7 “It is God's will that you...should avoid sexual immorality; For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.”

Myth #3 We are just as committed to each other as a married couple.

No you're not. Sorry. Where’s the marriage certificate? Where was the change that occurred from two to one before God? Who are the witnesses? Where’s the pictures (not really required but nice for keepsake)? On this day these two declared before the Lord they wished to be committed to each other.

Particularly as Christians we are to be light to a world in darkness.

Matt.5:14-16 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it gives light to all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

We are to glorify God in all we do.

1 Cor.10:31

Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Myth #4 Our friendship won't suffer by moving in together.

Really? How boring and unnatural to live together before marriage. When you get married what has changed? What does Genesis have to say about this?

Gen.2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

Myth #5 We can love one another just as much without marriage.

The marriage relationship between a man and a woman was designed to be binding, before God, and before witnesses. It is a symbol of God’s love through Christ for His bride the Church (The Body of Christ or those who are grafted into and adopted into God’s family). It’s not a contract that can be broken. Biblically it is a covenant.

Mal. 2:14 ...the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

Not marrying someone we live with is not being honest with the other person. It’s like “playing house” until or if we don’t fill like doing so any longer.

Rom.13:14 “Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and wantonness, not in strife and envying. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.”

[gdemoss]

Can anyone determine what the living arrangements for the one spoken of in 1 Cor 7 and his virgin that he was behaving himself unseemly toward might have been? Sounds like marriage was the answer to avoid acting in an ungodly manner toward her outside of marriage. If living conditions prohibited them from being 'together' what would be the need for Paul's advice? I'm just not sure about this one.

Gary

[j102]

Two people simply living together is not a sin. But it can lead to lust and fornication, which are sins. However, if this couple joins together in faith before GOD to be man and wife as the Scriptures mandate, that may be a different story and not sinful. I personally believe that GOD sees that as marrage. On that point, I guess it depends on whether one believes that couples marriages must be sanctioned by the State in order to be valid.

I guess my original question was dealing more with two adults (male and female) living together as husband and wife before marriage before God (but I guess one could say the state as well)... The question was more directed at people (particularly Christians) that don't see this as a sinful relationship and how one could possibly justify this Biblically or otherwise.

just because a male lives with a female doesn't mean there in sin, it's what they do before there married is what's the issue. if i'm not mistaken apostal paul had women stay at the same place he was staying out of convenience a few times.

Okay so help me understand what you're saying. Are you saying that two people who live together in a romantic/physical relationship (and we all know that living together implies other things) before they're married is not a sin?

If so what is the Biblical backing for this please?

come on, just because 2 people of the opposite sex live together doesn't mean that they are having sex- remember god has giving us a spirit of self control. we shouldn't let man's or church tradition overshadow what the word says. be blessed.

can you give me scripture that states a man and a woman must live in seperate buildings?

Forgive me for jumping in, but in my opinion, having non-related single people of the opposite sex living together is like like putting a steak dinner in front of a starving person and expecting them not to eat it.

well if a person has a weakness in a certain area they need to pray for that spirit of self control to kick in, but i do understand where your coming from.

[j102]

just because a male lives with a female doesn't mean there in sin, it's what they do before there married is what's the issue. if i'm not mistaken apostal paul had women stay at the same place he was staying out of convenience a few times.

Okay so help me understand what you're saying. Are you saying that two people who live together in a romantic/physical relationship (and we all know that living together implies other things) before they're married is not a sin?

If so what is the Biblical backing for this please?

come on, just because 2 people of the opposite sex live together doesn't mean that they are having sex- remember god has giving us a spirit of self control. we shouldn't let man's or church tradition overshadow what the word says. be blessed.

can you give me scripture that states a man and a woman must live in seperate buildings?

I agree if two people of the opposite sex live together it doesn't mean they're engaging in sex - especially if they are not romantically involved. Perhaps the distinction wasn't apparent. So a roomate is one thing... But I'm talking about two people who are living together as husband and wife without being married before God or otherwise. What do you think of this?

God has given us a spirit of self-control. At best some things permissible but not beneficial?

Re: Scritpture... Sorry I asked first. But I do have some passages to discuss if you don't have anything you'd like to present first.

i agree sex outside of marrige is wrong.

[GoldenEagle]

Can anyone determine what the living arrangements for the one spoken of in 1 Cor 7 and his virgin that he was behaving himself unseemly toward might have been? Sounds like marriage was the answer to avoid acting in an ungodly manner toward her outside of marriage. If living conditions prohibited them from being 'together' what would be the need for Paul's advice? I'm just not sure about this one.

Gary

Perhaps we should look at the audience Paul was writing too. Arranged marriages were not uncommon. People knew at a pretty early age who their parents chose for them to marry. And we do know that when people have feelings for each other it arouses certain passions. Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?

Your thoughts? Or anyone else’s take on this?

[GoldenEagle]

Can anyone determine what the living arrangements for the one spoken of in 1 Cor 7 and his virgin that he was behaving himself unseemly toward might have been? Sounds like marriage was the answer to avoid acting in an ungodly manner toward her outside of marriage. If living conditions prohibited them from being 'together' what would be the need for Paul's advice? I'm just not sure about this one.

Gary

Perhaps we should look at the audience Paul was writing too. Arranged marriages were not uncommon. People knew at a pretty early age who their parents chose for them to marry. And we do know that when people have feelings for each other it arouses certain passions. Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?

Your thoughts? Or anyone else’s take on this?

I am not sure I understand.

What is inappropriate? That people have feelings (and the associated certain passions) for each other? Or that they actually consume their marriage?

Since I expect that it is a good thing to consume a marriage (otherwise we would be extinct), the only logical conclusion is that it is inappropriate to do it when there is a certain feeling involved which might create ungodly situations before the marriage itself.

I hope you are aware that this is the same "morality" we see in Pakistan and Afghanistan today. And if we fight this morality today, why do we think it was OK at the time of Paul? Moral relativism?

Ciao

- viole

To be perfectly clear: It is inappropriate to have sex before marriage and live together outside of marriage in a sexual relationship from a Biblical standpoint as I posted in post #37 ().

Feelings within the context of marriage is natural and good. But when those feelings completely rule our lives and make us sin against God's Word it is probably not for the best for us to just follow our feelings. God made us to be relational yet rational people. But there are good ways of handling things (sex within marriage) and wrong ways (sex outside of marriage) would you agree?

In no way, shape, or fashion am I excusing the behavior in the Arab world for the mishandling of minors. For clarification we are not saying this is okay. At least I'm not. This is NOT moral relativism.

The comment to Gary was simply in reference to the passage he had a question about in 1 Cor. 7 regarding inappropriateness between virgins and men. The passage states that especially if people lack self-control it is better to marry than to burn with passion (verse 9). Therefore if two people love each other and they are able they should marry. Do you understand and/or agree with what I was trying to say?

Ciao

~Eagle

[gdemoss]

Can anyone determine what the living arrangements for the one spoken of in 1 Cor 7 and his virgin that he was behaving himself unseemly toward might have been? Sounds like marriage was the answer to avoid acting in an ungodly manner toward her outside of marriage. If living conditions prohibited them from being 'together' what would be the need for Paul's advice? I'm just not sure about this one.

Gary

Perhaps we should look at the audience Paul was writing too. Arranged marriages were not uncommon. People knew at a pretty early age who their parents chose for them to marry. And we do know that when people have feelings for each other it arouses certain passions. Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?

Your thoughts? Or anyone else’s take on this?

Where does the bible explain this method of interpretation? The bible does not detail the culture of the time and then tell us to divorce the biblical principle from that which is perceived to be cultural only. For this cause Christians have done away with the holy kiss which is commanded no less than seven times by two different apostles.

Your thread about the De-evolution of culture is perfect to describe what modern day bible thumping soul winning Christians have done to both the gospel message and sensitivity to sin by what is actually called sin making a mistake in our day. It is no wonder people laugh off Christians who try to tell them that the bible is the inerrant inspired word of God.....well that is unless of course you know the culture of the day....then well we can, if we don't like something, call it cultural and rip that page out.

Jesus is coming back. It isn't because he is happy with us.

Gary

[GoldenEagle]

Can anyone determine what the living arrangements for the one spoken of in 1 Cor 7 and his virgin that he was behaving himself unseemly toward might have been? Sounds like marriage was the answer to avoid acting in an ungodly manner toward her outside of marriage. If living conditions prohibited them from being 'together' what would be the need for Paul's advice? I'm just not sure about this one.

Gary

Perhaps we should look at the audience Paul was writing too. Arranged marriages were not uncommon. People knew at a pretty early age who their parents chose for them to marry. And we do know that when people have feelings for each other it arouses certain passions. Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?

Your thoughts? Or anyone else’s take on this?

Where does the bible explain this method of interpretation? The bible does not detail the culture of the time and then tell us to divorce the biblical principle from that which is perceived to be cultural only. For this cause Christians have done away with the holy kiss which is commanded no less than seven times by two different apostles.

Your thread about the De-evolution of culture is perfect to describe what modern day bible thumping soul winning Christians have done to both the gospel message and sensitivity to sin by what is actually called sin making a mistake in our day. It is no wonder people laugh off Christians who try to tell them that the bible is the inerrant inspired word of God.....well that is unless of course you know the culture of the day....then well we can, if we don't like something, call it cultural and rip that page out.

Jesus is coming back. It isn't because he is happy with us.

Gary

Sorry Gary if I offended you. It was simply an opinion on what you asked. A suggestion thus the question: "Perhaps this was to avoid any inappropriateness?" What would be your take on the passage you mentioned?

[OneLight]

The list is much larger if you consider how sin has weaved its way into all parts of life and society, including those who consider themselves Christians, but do not live the life.

[GoldenEagle]

To be perfectly clear: It is inappropriate to have sex before marriage and live together outside of marriage in a sexual relationship from a Biblical standpoint as I posted in post #37 ().

Feelings within the context of marriage is natural and good. But when those feelings completely rule our lives and make us sin against God's Word it is probably not for the best for us to just follow our feelings. God made us to be relational yet rational people. But there are good ways of handling things (sex within marriage) and wrong ways (sex outside of marriage) would you agree?

In no way, shape, or fashion am I excusing the behavior in the Arab world for the mishandling of minors. For clarification we are not saying this is okay. At least I'm not. This is NOT moral relativism.

The comment to Gary was simply in reference to the passage he had a question about in 1 Cor. 7 regarding inappropriateness between virgins and men. The passage states that especially if people lack self-control it is better to marry than to burn with passion (verse 9). Therefore if two people love each other and they are able they should marry. Do you understand and/or agree with what I was trying to say?

Ciao

~Eagle

Yeap, I undesrtand, Nope, I do not agree.

I might be an old fashioned romantic, but I think that a lifelong relationship needs those feelings, independently of the risk they pose to a godly behavior, whatever that is.

I don't want to shock you, but here in Scandinavia virtually nobody marries as a virgin if not for reasons outside their control or because of some health issues. Actually, you might have problems to marry if you declare you are a virgin.

We simply do not think that sexuality is "just" for procreation for the same reason we do not think that gourmet restaurants are only meant to get enough calories until the end of the day. And who wants to commit to a certain restaurant all life long without first trying it?

I know you will now shoot at me (is she romantic or not?). But this is how we think

Ciao

- viole

P.S. what do you mean with inappropriateness between virgins and men? Do you think men cannot be virgin? Or do you think that there is no inappropriateness between virgins and women? LOL.

Actually you might surprised to know that I’m hopelessly romantic. And I love watching romantic movies (chick flicks?) with my wife. I love being with my wife and enjoying all the wonderful times together. I love my wife emotionally, physically, intellectually, and spiritually.

I’m not shocked about your comment about Scandinavia. That is actually not too uncommon in North America either. In fact I was told the same thing in my formative years. But I believed God had something better in store for me. As did my wife in our case.

I don’t think that sex within marriage is just for procreation either. I enjoy the wife of my youth. (Prov. 5:18) However, as my previous post #37 exemplified sex is to be between one man and one woman within marriage for life. That is God’s intent and the design. There’s ways and then there’s God’s way. But thankfully God is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and filled with unfailing love. God’s give people second chances.

When I married as a virgin my wife, who was also a virgin, we trusted God that he would bless our marriage and our relationship. Everything was discovered together. Compatibility was never an issue. Perhaps, we thought, God would even allow us to expand our family? We have a little 5 month old. Would our marriage before God be complete without our son? Yes. Does he add joy to our lives? You bet. I am completely content and secure in God’s love regarding marriage.

Caio

~ Eagle

Ps – "virgins" are at times interchangeable with the word "woman" as I understand it in the Bible and are terms sometimes inter-exchangeable in the manner they are used.