ENOCH2010 Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted October 14, 2012 WailingWall I agree with your assessments of the rapture theory. The pre-trib crowd has to add alot of speculation to the word of God to make their theory sound feasible.As Onelight says, stick with what the Bible says instead of the left behind series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 WW, I have to agree with what others say here. that the answers to your questions are found in scripture, not in the arguments and speculation about how the bible does not mean what it appears to say. You are on the right track, and often times, asking others to justify their veiws, just leads to confusion, not clarity. Of course I am not speaking of anyone in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,657 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2012 The wrath of God is otherwise called the GREAT tribulation. Can you prove this with scripture? Alls ive found is the Day of the Lord is the day of Gods wrath. Not the trib period. But if you can show me scripture that says otherwise please do so. Also could you answer the original question as to why the last trumpet isnt really the last trumpet There are dozens. Revelations 6:16-17, 14:19, 15:1, 16:1 are but a few. The Day of God's wrath sounds like Great Tribulation to me. Daniel 12:1-3, Mathew 24:21-22 , and Matt 24:29 sounds like the last of the 7 bowls of wrath in Rev 16:17-21 There are many times that trumpets were blown and for different feasts and different reasons. The trumpet blown for the snatching away of the Church has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of judgement of Revelations. The rescue of the Church is not a judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,657 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2012 I have a theory. Those that think that they came from slime or and apes---well, maybe they did. Those of us who believe we were made in the likeness of God--there is good evidence that we were. Those who don't believe they will be snatched away or resurrected to always be with the Lord prior to the Great Tribulation---probably will be left here.. And those who are looking for His appearing to take us to Himself will most likely be with Him in heaven during the Great Trib. I have never read the Left Behind series or seen it on TV, and am completely unfamiliar with it. I heard that it is fiction. The Bible is not fiction and that is what I base my beliefs on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,585 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,443 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Shalom, ENOCH2010. WailingWall I agree with your assessments of the rapture theory. The pre-trib crowd has to add alot of speculation to the word of God to make their theory sound feasible.As Onelight says, stick with what the Bible says instead of the left behind series. Right, and it is precisely that speculation that is responsible for the Left Behind series! However, once one has opened the door for random speculation that is not grounded in the Scripture, the sky's the limit as to what people can contrive! One of the greatest strengths of a human being is his/her imagination. It is the human imagination through which God has blessed us with great inventions and innovations; however, one's imagination is also his/her greatest weakness, as well! If one is not grounded in the absolutes of God and His Word, one could come up with all sorts of ingenious but wacky scenarios! The whole world of fiction books, TV shows and movies are all based on story-telling from the words or writings of people with great imaginations. But then, so are the biggest whoppers, hoaxes, and deceptions! The REAL trick is "sticking to what the Bible says!" I've seen time and time again where a Scripture is so unknowingly abused so often that a person cannot read that Scripture without thinking of that Scripture in that particular light! There are a couple of sayings and a little book that have helped me immensely. First of all, "never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." Just break the habit we all seem to have: Don't assume that a person is intending to deceive; just understand that he or she is probably just as deceived as the people to whom he or she is talking! Second, come to realize that "we don't even know that we don't know what we don't know!" These are "blind spots" to us, ... which is the name of the little book I like, Blind Spots: Why Smart People Do Dumb Things, by Madeleine L. Van Hecke. It's just like in formal education: When we first go to school, we study all sorts of subjects to expose us to a plethera of knowledge. Whether we will be firemen or accountants or scientists or politicians or preachers, we most likely don't even know the path we MIGHT take until we understand what possibilities are out there from which to choose! When I briefly taught high school, one of the questions I was constantly asked by students was, "When am I ever going to use this stuff?" My answer was, "Do I look like God to you?! How am I supposed to know if or when you will ever use this stuff (usually mathematics)? It's my job to expose you to the knowledge that is available to you, and it is God's job to direct your steps! It is YOUR job to learn what you are able to learn so that God has something to work with as He forms your future! Now, if you are willing to give God your very best so that you're not limiting your potential to work for Him, then I will help you learn this stuff." When we read the Scriptures, we must consciously open ourselves up to what the authors, both the human author and the Divine Author, are trying to say to us. We must consciously read for understanding, not try to fit our preconceived notions into the Scriptures we are reading! Reading Scripture to get something OUT of it is not easy. We have become so good at reading what we believe INTO the Scriptures we are reading (eisogesis), but reading Scripture to get something OUT of it (exogesis) can become second nature when done often enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2012 WW From Adam Clark Commentery; 1 Corinthians 15:52 1Co 15:52 Verse 52. In a moment] en atomw. In an atom; that is, an indivisible point of time. In the twinkling of an eye; as soon as a man can wink; which expressions show that this mighty work is to be done by the almighty power of God, as he does all his works, He calls, and it is done. The resurrection of all the dead, from the foundation of the world to that time, and the change of all the living then upon earth, shall be the work of a single moment. At the last trump] This, as well as all the rest of the peculiar phraseology of this chapter, is merely Jewish, and we must go to the Jewish writers to know what is intended. On this subject, the rabbins use the very same expression. Thus Rabbi Akiba: "How shall the holy blessed God raise the dead? We are taught that God has a trumpet a thousand ells long, according to the ell of God: this trumpet he shall blow, so that the sound of it shall extend from one extremity of the earth to the other. At the first blast the earth shall be shaken; at the second, the dust shall be separated; at the third, the bones shall be gathered together; at the fourth, the members shall wax warm; at the fifth, the heads shall be covered with skin; at the sixth, the souls shall be rejoined to their bodies; at the seventh, all shall revive and stand clothed." See Wetstein. This tradition shows us what we are to understand by the last trump of the apostle; it is the seventh of Rab. Akiba, when the dead shall be all raised, and, being clothed upon with their eternal vehicles, they shall be ready to appear before the judgment seat of God. For the trumpet shall sound] By this the apostle confirms the substance of the tradition, there shall be the sound of a trumpet on this great day; and this other scriptures teach: see Zec 9:14; Mt 24:31; Joh 5:25; 1Th 4:16, in which latter place, the apostle treats this subject among the Thessalonians, as he does here among the Corinthians. See the notes there. Shall be raised incorruptible] Fully clothed with a new body, to die no more. We shall be changed.] That is, those who shall then be found alive. Just a different slant. "At the Last Trump" it is Jewish. But the Last Trump Of vs 50-55 is Post Mill, not Pre Mill. When do all the "Just" who were born during the Mill receive their eternal bodies? When is death swollowed up in Victory? Not until the Bema seat of Christ when we receive our rewards. Post Mill there is still death after Satan is released to deceive the nations for a final time. Death cannot be swollowed up in Victory until there is no more death. Which is Post Mill. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2012 The wrath of God is otherwise called the GREAT tribulation. Can you prove this with scripture? Alls ive found is the Day of the Lord is the day of Gods wrath. Not the trib period. But if you can show me scripture that says otherwise please do so. Also could you answer the original question as to why the last trumpet isnt really the last trumpet There are dozens. Revelations 6:16-17, 14:19, 15:1, 16:1 are but a few. The Day of God's wrath sounds like Great Tribulation to me. Daniel 12:1-3, Mathew 24:21-22 , and Matt 24:29 sounds like the last of the 7 bowls of wrath in Rev 16:17-21 There are many times that trumpets were blown and for different feasts and different reasons. The trumpet blown for the snatching away of the Church has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of judgement of Revelations. The rescue of the Church is not a judgement. Let's say it does not for the sake of argument. When do you see the trumpet being blown? Where in Revelation is it going to be blown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofjesuschrist Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/18/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2012 Willing, grace and peace to you. May the HOLY SPIRIT guide you in your search on such a spiritual matter, but the answer is in those passages mentioned. One was from GOD through Paul in 1 Corinthians and the other through the WORD made flesh; JESUS CHRIST! The passages are saying the same thing. Read carefully. They both talk about the who is chosen and who is put away. JESUS says, " my yoke is easy, and my burden is light". We are taught JESUS and the word is hard to understand ( only because we are taught wrong from birth; for many reasons). But once putting full trust in the LORD, then it's just simple, because JESUS orders are simple; love ( MARK 12:29-31). One must have love in the heart to understand these spiritual matters. AGAPE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WailingWall Posted October 14, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 458 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/25/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 There are many times that trumpets were blown and for different feasts and different reasons. The trumpet blown for the snatching away of the Church has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of judgement of Revelations. The rescue of the Church is not a judgement. But Willamina, why does the 1Cor.15 scripture say its the last trumpet to be blown? If it is the last trumpet to be blown as that scripture says there is no room for a pre or mid trib rapture event. ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM. In scripture above youve got "a great trumpet" blowing. Youve got a gathering of Gods people {in the twinkling of an eye?}. When do you believe that trumpet is to be blown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) Simply put; this topic is one that people look at a scripture and make assumptions of what they think it means because they do not take the time to do a deep enough study on the topic,,which means you have to a deep well understood understanding of the times, the era ,the generational mindset of the people writing and who they are writing to and the culture in that day ......if someone walked up to a person in their 90's ,,or maybe 6 years old and said ''hey homies , word...are you down wit pulling a blunt to ash? and that lingo...only the people who are already familair with 'that 'lingo will understand .,others will have no idea what is being discussed ,, the rapture is a separate event ,,it is not the second coming rapture = Christains go up to meet the Lord in the air 2nd coming = Jesus comes down to,earth,,,the 1000 year reign of Christ begins when Christ returns ,,,it does not begin at the rapture the fact is that the ancient Jews have a tradition with trumpets there is a cultural understanding that many people in the western world have no understanding of this is a very easy topic to understand when you have ALL the important info taken into account,,,nearly all people who do not get it ..seem to always leave out some scriptures that make it easy to understand....very easy...but when you try to understand without all scripture it will be difficult think about it...why Mattew , Mark Luke and John ,,,all about the same topic,,, why there is 4 ?? it is because not all needed info is in just one of the Gospels of Jesus ,,it requires ALL 4 to get the full picture,,,if you remove the book of John and just use 3 Gospels ,,,you will not have ALL the required info to get the full understanding Amen. That's all I've got to say. This topic has been rehashed so many times and those who believe the way they do, including myself, are not likely to be persuaded otherwise. Scripture is easy to manipulate in order to have it back up positions which can be ambiguous in it's teaching. Edited October 14, 2012 by Parker1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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